Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Subscribe: Google Podcasts | Spotify | RSS
Building an inclusive and accessible brand is so important, so today we’re chatting about how you can support your neurodivergent clients. After Megan Dowd received her own ADHD diagnosis, she began exploring how she could set her own brand therapy business up to support other clients like herself. In today’s episode, she is sharing three ways that you can support your neurodivergent clients through a human first, business second approach.
If today’s episode resonates with you and you want to show support for the show, here’s an easy way to do so: Buy Me A Coffee!
Brand Therapist Megan Dowd is a neurodiverse entrepreneur, business strategist, coach, and storyteller. With her Human First, Biz Second® approach, she is helping new and seasoned business owners build a better human connection with themselves and their clients — leaning into who they are and what they stand for.
After nearly a decade as a professional actress and becoming a Jill-of-all-trades in that industry, Megan decided to go into business for herself. There she learned that the skills she acquired in acting reciprocated into business. She started MD&Co in 2018 and celebrates leveraging her client’s strengths, transparency, values, and building a connection. She also built Hello, CEO in 2020 to help support neurodiverse entrepreneurs discover where they can thrive in a business world that isn’t one size fits all.
Megan is also the founder of the original Spicy Soapbox™, where she candidly discusses an array of topics. When she’s not helping entrepreneurs run their businesses seamlessly, you will find her drinking cold brew, cuddling fluffy cats, and eating plenty of snacks!
Megan’s ADHD Diagnosis
For years, Megan saw a therapist for her anxiety and depression. She was managing it well and taking the steps to take care of herself. It wasn’t until Megan had a friend diagnosied with ADHD that a lightbulb went off for her. It wasn’t long before Megan was also diagnosed with ADHD—which she’s fully embraced.
With ADHD, her brain is not only chemically different, but it’s built a little different. It’s not good or bad, it just is. She’s always felt passionate about working with neurodivergent humans, who think a little differently and work a little differently—in the past she just simply didn’t have the language to describe this type of client. Now she helps them build a business with services that work best for their brains.
3 Ways To Support Your Neurodivergent Clients
As Megan has learned more about her own neurodivergence and ADHD, she was able to clarify her messaging for who she enjoys working with. For many neurodivergent humans, frameworks don’t necessarily work unilaterally like you’d want. This took her on a journey to learning better ways to suppor neurodivergent clients.
Your business model to follow: human first, business second.
Be clear and direct in your expectations.
Be clear and direct in your expectations, whether it is how you work or what you want from your clients. This simple, direct communication helps guide your neurodivergent clients in working well with you. Approaching the expectations for any client with direct communication is valuable for your business.
You could even take it a step further and send a welcome guide or client-only landing page that is a reference for those expectations. In addition, share how you prefer to communicate and/or give your clients the option to choose what works best for them based on their comfortability.
So many businesses are built for able-bodied folks and neurotypical folks—it’s about time that we just acknowledge that there’s not one way to be human.
Understanding Different Learning Styles
Another consideration is different learning styles—we don’t all interact with material or understand it the same way. So this is your encouragement to interrogate the systems you’ve set up: how does it serve you and your client? Beyond the reason of I set it up this way, is there a reason you have to do it this way?
In doing this, you may even find that you’re not giving your clients all of the information they need. As you review these, you can also ask your clients. Ask them specific questions about each step of your client process:
- How would my clients like to engage?
- How would my clients prefer to recieve information?
- How often do my clients need to hear from me?
After you’ve reviewed each of these and looked at the different styles to provide to clients, take a look at what you can actually manage in your business and what will work for you. If it’s not bringing you joy or ease, why are you doing it?
Encouragement: Start by Observing
If you’re ready to start making these changes in your business, but are feeling overwhelmed or nervous, this is your encouragement that no one is expecting you to make these changes immediately. Slow and steady changes can make the most impact, but simply start by observing.
The more you grant yourself kindness in what you’re observing, you’ll learn exactly what changes you want or need to make.
CONNECT WITH Megan
IG: @withmegandowd
SUPPORT THE SHOW
FOLLOW ALONG
LIKE THE SHOW?
IN ORDER TO PROVIDE CONTENT YOU LOVE I WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU! SUBSCRIBE TO THE BRAND STRATEGY PODCAST AND LEAVE A 5-STAR REVIEW HERE. THE MORE REVIEWS, THE MORE I’M ABLE TO PROVIDE THIS FREE-ACTIONABLE CONTENT!
Review the Transcript:
Please note that transcripts are auto generated and may contain typos.
Bonnie (00:07):
Hi, friend, and welcome to the Brand Strategy Podcast, a show created to equip you with the inspiration, encouragement, and clarity you need to build a brand of your dreams. I’m your host, Bonnie bti, brand designer, strategist, and founder of the Illume Retreat from sustainable Strategy to heartfelt Encouragement. Each episode is designed to equip you with the tools you need to chase after your dreams, because you deserve a brand that empowers you to do what you love, connects with your dream clients, and offers a deep sense of fulfillment along the way. So grab a cup of coffee and join me on this journey, won’t you
Bonnie (00:46):
Friends? Welcome back to the Brand Strategy Podcast for today. We’re talking about three intentional ways to support your neurodivergent clients with Megan Dowd. I’m really excited to be welcoming Megan to the show today. Uh, this is such a fantastic conversation, one that I am so passionate about, and I really hope that as you’re tuning in today, that you’re just gonna walk away with so much insight from our incredible guest. And speaking of which, uh, if you haven’t met Megan before, I am really looking forward to being able to connect you with her. She is a brand therapist who is an incredibly talented entrepreneur, business strategist, coach, and storyteller. As a fantastically neurodiverse human, she has created this human first biz second approach that she uses to help new and seasoned business owners alike, build a better human connection with themselves and their clients by leaning into who they are and what they stand for. So, Megan, I’m so excited to have you. Thank you again for coming on, and I am really looking forward to diving into today’s topic with you.
Megan (01:57):
Oh heavens. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I’m really, I’m flattered to be described as such, uh, , and I’m really excited to chat about, to chat about business, to chat about brand strategy, to chat about what all of that means through the lens of what neurodivergent humans, uh, especially neurodivergent humans within the online business industrial complex.
Bonnie (02:21):
Hmm, absolutely. Well, before we dive into all of the goodness that awaits us there, uh, if you’re up for it, I’d love to hear a little bit more about who you are and this amazing business that you’ve built.
Megan (02:34):
Yeah. Hello. Hi, my name is Megan Dowd. This is my, uh, flight attendant voice, uh, . Love it. Hi. Thank you. Thank you. Um, , I was an actress in a former life. I can slip into it at any time. Mm-hmm. , uh, , I, so I started my business many years ago in what my husband and I have deemed the Ohio experiment. It is a long and winding story of being stuck in Ohio for a certain number of years for his work. And I needed to ha I needed to do something while also kind of being his life manager, cuz he was working up to 18 hours a day. I, it is a long and complicated story. It was a mess. We both got out of the Ohio experiment, but during which I started my own business and realized how much I really loved being able to dig into the branding, the copy, the design, the, the, in many ways, like the theatrical production of business.
Megan (03:31):
Like there are all these pieces that come together. And for me it was like, it was such a perfect parallel to my previous work in theater and acting experience. And in doing that I always had like, oh, you have such a unique perspective and oh, you see things in such a unique way, which is lovely to hear. And also sometimes like, but you don’t mm-hmm. , like, does no one else see this? Mm-hmm. , uh, and it was in Ohio that I, that I found a therapist that I really, really gelled with. I suspected that I’d had anxiety and depression for years. She kind of solidified that. And I, one thing I’ve, I have always loved about my time with her is that she had always emphasized it really doesn’t matter what, like, I don’t care as your therapist what your diagnosis is exactly. I care about how we are managing the symptoms of what that diagnosis might be and how you are able to live your life, how you’re able to, to cope, to thrive, to just be, which I thought was, and I’ve carried it with me as just so lovely.
Megan (04:39):
So I, I made my peace with like, all right, I’ve got clinical depression, I had anxiety. Running my own business really does work really well for me because I can work around those things per it, it, I have more control over working around those things than when I had a nine to five. And it was a ca Right about the time the pandemic started, I, a friend had been diagnosed with A D H D and I was like, oh, that sounds, I mean, I, I did fine in school, so obviously I couldn’t have, like, I obviously, and really in so many ways, since then, like if you’re diagnosed with anxiety and clinical depression, that’s almost like, like a little church bell of like ADHD, ADHA, ADHA .
Megan (05:34):
Uh, and so it, with, with that diagnosis then, uh, that I only formally just received this past year, it’s, I’ve really like fully embraced that. Like, my brain is not just chemically different. It is built a little bit different. And it is, it’s to my, to my experience and to my opinion, it’s neither good nor bad. Like it just is mm-hmm. . And so I’ve created different ways that I work around it. And I really love working with neurodivergent humans with humans who feel like they think a little bit differently, who hum for humans who, who feel like they work a little bit differently. They approach things a little bit differently. And I love working with them to find the ways that we can build systems, offers, services, whatever, around what works best for your, for their brain, and not just the business’ best practices, heavy air quotes,
Bonnie (06:34):
. I love that. I think that when, you know, hearing that there are, there’s just so much like passion coming through of, of just your own experience. But when I hear you talk about, you know, the work that you get to do with your clients and the impact that you get to have, I can tell that you’re so deeply passionate about this. And I, I would be curious to hear when you, because I know that this diagnosis for you somewhat recent mm-hmm. , have you known for many years now that you’ve had your business that you felt this kind of draw to supporting neurodivergent humans and the online business space? Or was that more kind of a recent focus that you’ve felt yourself kind of drawn towards?
Megan (07:21):
It? It was definitely something that I’ve always felt strongly about. I just didn’t have the language mm-hmm. to, to articulate it. I have always loved working at the fringes, so to speak. I love, ever since I started my business in, in the Ohio in the Ohio years, I, I loved working with, and I tended to attract because I could see how all the pieces connected folks who were doing things very much their own way, even if it was within a, a well trodden space. One of my, one of my first clients is, was a, and she still is a yoga teacher. She leads journaling work workshops. It’s a lot of self-development work. And one of the first things that we chatted about was we were doing some core values work, which is some, like, to date some of my favorite work to do, it is one of my favorite things to do with clients.
Megan (08:24):
Uh, and we are digging into the language of it, which again, like, I’m such a language nerd, I love it, . And she kept saying like, I think one of my, one of my core values is to empower. It was like, that is an awesome word. That’s a really strong word. I love that word. It has been used to a point where it makes no sense anymore. Mm-hmm. , like, it doesn’t, it has no impact. What we mean, like, what else do you mean by empower? And so we really dug into her definition. And, and one of the things that I emphasized with her, like even back then was like, I, I don’t really care what how we define it for, for you, it has to make sense to you. We can, we can figure out the, like, how that translates into your web copy and the design later.
Megan (09:07):
We can figure out the external stuff later, but we gotta start with the internal stuff so that even if you’re using these big words that have been repeated over and over and over again, they have a really, really specific flavor to you. And folks will pick up on that. So thank, thank you for letting me go on that little tangent. What a perfect example of , an ADHD brain. Um, but yes, since I started, I’ve really, I really enjoy working with folks who just see and approach things a little bit differently and in turn are eager to interrogate that are, are eager to kind of take it all apart to see how it works and then put it back together. And as I learned more and more about my own clinical depression and Neurodivergence and A D H D, especially how it presents and is frequently ignored in women, I, I was able to get more and more language for like, oh, this is, this is who I work with, this is how I work these, these are my people, and these are some, this is some of the language that also resonates with them so that I can make it clear that like, I don’t, I’m not, I don’t wanna teach you a framework or a, or templatize something.
Megan (10:28):
And, and Frank and I have no beef with folks who do that. That’s awesome. It’s just that for a lot of divergent folks without a lot of other supports in place, handing over a framework and saying, now follow this doesn’t really work. Because the, our, our brains approach things differently. Our brains make sense of things differently. And on the rare occasion that you get a, a teacher, a guide, a leader, a mentor or whatever, who’s leading this program, teaching you this framework on the rare occasion that you get access to them and they are open to amending their framework to being flexible with you. Like magic can happen, certainly, but especially in the, as I have dubbed at the, the online business industrial complex, in the first wave of like, everyone can make a course, courses are a great way to make money. There was a lot of, there’s a power differential that’s set up with the person that’s leading the course and the students. And it’s set up to be, it was originally sold to be passive income where you don’t have to be involved mm-hmm. . And that’s, I mean, I’m not even gonna get on my spicy soapbox about how many issues there are with that, but suffice it to say with neuro divergent brains, like, that is a recipe for disaster. Mm. Yeah. I hear that. Well,
Bonnie (11:53):
Just side note, that’s a spicy soapbox that I would like love to be here for some other time, . So like, sign me up for that conversation, I’ll be back. But, um, cause I, I think that you and I share a lot of, a lot of similar thoughts, mm-hmm. , the way that the online business space has, has been set up to uphold certain practices, certain marketing techniques, certain, like you would say, power differentials that are not serving everybody in a mm-hmm. way. So with that being said, knowing that the way that we set up our businesses, knowing that the way that we offer our products or our services and the way that we can guide our clients through those, or guide our customers through them, there’s, I think that the way that I see it, there’s this amount of care that we as business owners can be pouring into what we offer and how we’ve created it. Mm-hmm. . And that care comes from the way that I see it. It comes from this place of acknowledging and respecting that we serve real, living, breathing humans. Yes. And every human is unique, and every human might need something different from us. And I’m not saying that we need to like bend over backwards and work ourselves into the ground to like, oh, certainly
Megan (13:17):
Not.
Bonnie (13:17):
We intimately customize every offer that we have to, like every single person that buys it. But I am saying that I think that there’s this immense amount of power that we can use for good when we Yes. Think about how we are honoring that care, how we are reflecting that value for the humans that we work with. So mm-hmm. , with all that being said, what kinda support do our neurodivergent clients need from us as business owners?
Megan (13:46):
I mean, I think this goes for both neurotypical and neuro divergent. One of the, the best things that you can do as a business owner, especially if you’re like, Ooh, human first, bus second, I’m on board. Megan is being very clear and direct and, and, and explicitly stating expectations for folks. Mm-hmm. This is how you can expect I will be working with you in, in the space that we are cultivating together. And this is what I expect from folks who are joining this space. It’s so simple, but especially for neuro divergent folks, we might not always pick up on, on, on those social cues, on those ex on the implicit expectations. So the more that you can be explicit with, this is how I work, this is how you can get ahold of me. This is how to operate in this space, and this is what you can expect from me, so that it’s really being clear on both sides. Like, it’s, it’s such an easy thing to do, do that. I think more and more folks are doing, especially since the pandemic has hit, and we’re all kind of running on fumes at this point, ,
Bonnie (15:02):
Right?
Megan (15:03):
We don’t have, we don’t have the brain space to parse the, the social, the implied social niceties. We all need just a little bit of more direct communication. It’s, there are a few good things that have come from the pandemic. There are always good things that come from radical social upheaval, uh, . And that, in my opinion, this is one of them. And so, yeah, it, that’s, it’s such a simple thing. But I, uh, a couple of years ago, I put together, I started putting together a, a welcome packet for my clients, uh, that they get once they sign up with me, that’s like, oh my gosh, I’m so excited to work with you. And then it’s just like, expectations. This is how I invite you to operate in our working relationship. This is what you can expect from me here. All the links that you’ll ever need.
Megan (15:52):
I’m so excited to work with you. And the number of folks neurotypical and neurodivergent that I’ve gotten replies with a, with just like, oh my goodness, this was so lovely. Thank you. Or like, I refer to this all the time so that I know what, like what’s within scope. Mm-hmm. , it just makes it easier for every, and certainly, I’m not saying that you have to make, if you wanna make a welcome packet, rock on, go for it. You don’t have to, that’s not what I’m saying, . But just by, by setting those expectations up front, it is doing such a kindness to yourself as well as your clients or students.
Bonnie (16:29):
I love how, just how that practical example opens up so many opportunities. I mean, you know, whether, whether folks actually go out and, you know, create a welcome packet or they introduce maybe kind of a, an additional like onboarding email. Yeah. Um, when they’re onboarding a new client, or in my case, I actually took my welcome packet and turned it into this, um, kind of special little client only website that I can send out. And that just made my little, I love that. That just made my brand designer like brain so happy .
Megan (17:03):
Oh, I love, I love it, I
Bonnie (17:05):
Love it. But there’s so many ways they, we can, uh, set those expectations whether in conversation, whether through, you know, a tool like a welcome packet mm-hmm. or a, you know, client facing, you know, client only portal or something like that. And I think that just the, the beauty of that piece of advice is that setting clear expectations, not just for your clients, but also for yourself as a service provider, as the business owner. Mm-hmm. , this is what you can expect from me as well. Yeah. Uh, I think it just makes so much sense and it takes so much guesswork out of that initial kind of relationship where we’re, we’re first starting to get to know each each other and we’re first getting used to working together and, and setting those expectations accordingly.
Megan (17:54):
It’s, it’s such a lovely, it’s, it’s something I love when I’m a client and I get what, like, I don’t need a welcome packet, but when you let me know real clearly, like, Hey, this is how to get a hold of me. These are my inbox hours, this is how our project is going to work. We’re, and give me the walkthrough when and and beyond, like those basics when I’m encouraged to, or, or not even dissuaded, but, but when it’s made clear that like, either I will need you to have these questions filled out in this Google Doc by this date, or I want you to word vomit. I like please answer these things. But it does not have to be concise. Just setting that expectation helps me figure out how to approach it. And especially as someone with ADHD, I’m always thinking of every option everywhere, all at once.
Megan (18:46):
Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It’s very hard for my brain to pick a lane, so to speak. It’s hard to, I mean, in many ways, a D H D we could rename to like executive function disorder because it is that executive function that’s just like absent, uh, . And so having someone help, help take out some of those decisions that for them might seem implicit or a no-brainer. Like why would you even think of other ways to do it? Well, let me tell you, I can, if you want, we can chat about all the different ways my brain is saying that I could approach this add in a healthy dose of perfectionism, and I just, and like being the Hermione Granger of the room, and like, I just wanna do it right. I just wanna do it right. And I don’t know what is right. And that’s my own issue. Like, I’m not putting that on on you. Uh, that’s my own thing that I gotta deal with. But if you can help take out some of that questioning about what is the right thing that I need to do, wow. It’s, it’s such a small thing, but it goes such a long way, especially for your neurodivergent clients.
Bonnie (19:58):
Hmm. That makes, that makes so much sense. I’ve even, I, you know, kind of looking back to a recent experience that I had, I, I recently hired this incredible, um, service provider to work with me on a project mm-hmm. . And even kind of in those initial points of our professional relationship, when I was like learning more about her services and I’m, you know, kind of connecting with her more, she made it so clear, even like on the contact form of her website, she made it so clear that I’m neuro divergent and I have social anxiety. And so I am happy to chat with you via Zoom, but it will be an audio only call. Is that okay with you? If that is not okay with you, you know, like, thank you can agree to me on Voxer. Yeah. Like, she gave all of these really thoughtful options that I so respected, and it told me exactly how I could communicate with her in a way that makes her feel supported in a way that works for her, and a way that ensures that together she and I are able to do our best work.
Bonnie (21:02):
Yeah. And it was just such a brilliant idea. I actually kind of like stole it and like modified it. Now, I, whenever I am, um, inviting a client to come on a, you know, a Zoom call or to connect with me, I give them the option. Do you wanna chat with video on, do you want audio only? Do you want a phone call? Like, what works best with your availability? What works best with your energy levels? I’m, I’m someone who lives with a chronic illness mm-hmm. , and sometimes I just don’t have it in me. Like I physically don’t have it in me. Mm-hmm. get presentable enough to be seen on my webcam by another living, breathing human .
Megan (21:40):
You know, can I tell you how excited I was that this podcast interview, I, there is a little note that was like, you do not have to be camera ready . And as someone who also has a, has a chronic condition, I was like, oh, heck yes. Because that just takes out, and, and if, and if you did require me to be camera ready, like I can plan for that. Right. And also, that’s an extra step of energy. That’s if, if you’re familiar with spoon theory, that’s an extra spoon. And if I don’t have to spend that spoon on that, oh, I’m gonna feel a lot better.
Bonnie (22:12):
Ooh. I completely, like, I feel that in my bones. Like I am so, so precious with my spoons, . Mm-hmm.
Megan (22:20):
, you gotta be, you gotta be
Bonnie (22:23):
. Exactly. That’s how you survive. And so, um, you know, for me, thinking about just some simple thoughtful ways that I can be protecting my spoons, but also if my clients also are counting their spoons. Yeah. If my clients are also needing some kind of additional support, or, you know what, maybe they’re just having, having a, a, a really busy season and like they just don’t have the, the time to like sit still in front of their computer. So taking our conversation on the phone so they can be, you know, walking around or, you know, something like that, that works for me. And so I think that it’s just, you know, again, just being thoughtful about how you’re putting together these little touch points that set those expectations of how people can communicate with you and how you would like for them to reciprocate.
Megan (23:16):
It’s, it’s so simple. And it really is at the heart of, of my, my informal business motto, human first, biz second, because it is, it’s respecting both you the human behind the business as well as the human in front of you, the human that is in your audience, that is your client, that is your student, that whatever. And it’s that mutual respect that is so necessary that I think is not maliciously left out of the online business space, but kind of carelessly left out. I, I, I, we, especially since the pandemic has hit, especially since 2020, we’ve seen it shift a little bit. And I’m hoping that it will continue to shift in wonderful ways, but understanding the power differential between the, the coach and the coachee, the, the designer and the business owner, hiring them the whatever, just understanding some of those power differentials is so important so that you can really evaluate where it’s like, oh, this is, I’m holding unnecessary power that I don’t need to. Or like, okay, this is actually a boundary that I need to hold, but here’s how I can clearly communicate it so that we’re not budding up against it. And there’s no question
Bonnie (24:36):
That makes, that makes so much sense. Well, I think that also when I look at kind of the way that the online business space has been built and even, you know, society as a whole, I think that it’s important to acknowledge that you’re right. Not, not maliciously so, but just the reality is that a lot of these spaces are built for able-bodied folks mm-hmm. For neurotypical folks. And it’s, it’s about time that we just acknowledge that there’s not one way to be human. There’s not one way to think, there’s not one type of body, not one type of brain, not one type of biochemistry mm-hmm. . And so giving the spaces that we create as we operate within the online business space, as we operate within, you know, the bigger system of capitalism, Woohoo,
Megan (25:24):
,
Bonnie (25:25):
We have so much, we have so much opportunity to kind of create the change that we wanna see in our businesses. And I, I think that’s worth getting excited about.
Megan (25:34):
It is, and it’s, I mean, so, so many spoony and neuro divergent folks, folks who are again, on the margins of what we understand as typical flock to the online business space because there are opportunities for those modifications mm-hmm. for, for that flexibility, for that control. And in many ways, one could argue like, am I wor weekly? Am I working more hours than I would at a nine to five, you know, sometimes, but I’m in charge of those hours. And, and that is such a massive difference. I’m in charge of those hours and I’m in charge of how I get work done. I am beholden to no one but my own systems. And that is one of the most freeing things for me personally as a business owner. And that I think that as a business owner, I can offer my clients that when there is a specific method or process that, that I need for us to get through our work together in a timely and effective manner, I can communicate that.
Megan (26:44):
And also when there isn’t a necessary process, when it’s a little bit more open-ended, what works best for you? How does your brain work? Do you, are you someone that needs to just word vomit at me? Give me, give me it a love word vomit. Are you someone who does better with writing and you feel put on the spot when we’re in a coaching session? I would love to like send me a Google Doc that’s not out of scope. Yeah. And, and, and it’s really evaluating for yourself and communicating those places where, hey, there’s some wiggle room. What do you, is there something that would work better for you? How can I accommodate you? And being clear when like, Hey, I’m sorry we have to work, work with this process because this is how I work. And, and allowing yourself that nuance with your clients and, and in many ways that vulnerability with your clients or students.
Bonnie (27:38):
Mm-hmm. , one question that comes to mind from that is, I, I think that, you know, understanding how people who are just getting started with this process, especially like, let’s say you’re coming from the lens of, of, you know, being neurotypical mm-hmm. and your’re wanting to make sure that your processes, your workflows, your systems, your client experience feels more compassionate and feels more accessible and feels actually supportive for neurodivergent people. Do you have any, any advice or any recommendation for like, where would be some good places to get started or some good opportunities to kind of look at within your existing business to make some thoughtful changes?
Megan (28:28):
I, oh, the first thing that comes immediately to remind, and it’s a good rule for marketing as well. Repeat yourself. Hmm. It just by, by giving me the information in one place or saying it once on a call, I’m not gonna remember it. There are many of us who are gonna remember it. Yeah. , we all need information repeated and, and to get that information repeatedly. So having, having a place of reference like my welcome packet, like your v i p client website webs, webpage experience, having a, a place of reference for folks so that they can repeatedly get the information they need. Just the basics is, is such a helpful thing just off the bat. Secondly, I think understanding on a, on a very, very basic level, just first understanding their different learning styles and that that’s regardless of being neuro divergent or neurotypical, mm-hmm. .
Megan (29:32):
And specifically for folks who are neurodivergent, encouraging them and really encouraging and asking your clients, if not just if they understand something. Because I think a lot of us are very quick to be like, yep, I understand it when we don’t . But asking really thoughtful questions about how they’re interacting with the material or the process. Asking them what, is there something that would make this easier for you? And rather than asking the open-ended, like, what do you need? Because again, with an A D H ADHD brain, I’m like, I have every need. What kind of need are we talking about ? It’s asking very specific questions of like, do you do better with, say you’re doing a design project, are you someone who would do better if I gave you a loom walking you through the, the proof that I’m sending over? Or would you do better with a few bullet points walking you through what would make sense to your brain?
Megan (30:39):
Hmm. And that of course, is also dependent on if you have the time, energy, and spoons to do either of those. If you don’t, then you don’t need to offer it. But it’s the int really like asking yourself the question, interrogating the best business practices, air quotes, interrogating the processes that you’ve set up by default and asking yourself, does it have to, is there beyond the reason of I set it up this way? Is there a reason we have to do it this way? Is there a way that I can give some of my power back to my client or student? Is there a way that I can, that I can respond to this power dynamic? Is there a way that I can offer some ease back to them? Um, I think I muddled together a couple of answers together there, but I’m hoping your audience can parse them. .
Bonnie (31:37):
Oh, I’m sure. I’m sure. Because, you know, he, as I was, as I was absorbing what you were just sharing, you know, I was thinking, wow, there’s so many, there’s so many opportunities to get started in that. Even just that process of interrogating the systems that you’ve already set up mm-hmm. and examining, why did I implement this? How does this serve me? And how does this serve my client? And that’s actually something that I just find myself asking more and more these days is like, how does this serve us as humans? Yes. Yes. You know, I think that there’s a, there can be a difference between some of the systems or workflows or practices you’ve implemented in your business because, you know, some well intending online business coach told you that that was the most efficient, the best, the most profitable way to do it.
Bonnie (32:28):
Yeah. And it might be, and if that works for you, that’s amazing and I love that for you. Yeah. But I think that what I’m starting to see in my own business, because this is a space that I can, can absolutely speak to, I’m seeing just some ways of doing things that might look and feel efficient, but I’m not sure how good they feel from like a human standpoint, a compassionate standpoint. And so those are changes, those are questions that I’m processing myself. Those are changes that I’m making in my own business. Mm-hmm. . And last year I was, you know, sharing a little bit about that, even just with my email list saying, you know, there’s some shifts coming and I’m, you know, I’m really seeing this in the online business space. I think you’re probably seeing it too. Yeah. I think it’s time that we give ourselves the permission to make any of these changes that would better support us and support our clients living out our values and our businesses. For sure. And I think that that’s exactly what you’re encouraging people to do today.
Megan (33:29):
Okay. I mean, if you’re not, if your business is not in some way an an extension and an expression of your values, if it does not bring you ease, why are you sticking with it? I, I mean, I, and I say that with all the love in the world because I deeply understand the sunk fallacy, the sunk cost fallacy. Mm-hmm. , but by like, purely by by ease. One could argue that a nine to five a cor a corporate job is significantly easier. Significantly. Mm-hmm. Right? You, there is no, if you, if esp especially if you’re not paid hourly and you’ve got a salary, there’s no question where your next paycheck, like there’s no question of how much you’re going to get paid this month. There is no question of your bookkeeping, cuz you don’t have to do it. It’s the company. There’s no question of what is expected of me. You have a job description. Granted the corporate world is a cluster and sometimes you don’t know, but
Bonnie (34:29):
Right.
Megan (34:29):
, but that’s its own issue that we will talk about in our post-capitalist podcast episode. And so, like, if you’re not getting the trade off of running your own business, if you are not having ease in places, that’s not to say that it’s easy. But if you’re not facilitating ease in your life, if you are not facilitating the ways in which you work best, whether that’s how your brain works or just environmentally, if it is a slog to as like, you always have to ask yourself, why am I, why am I doing this? Do I, do I still want to be doing this? Because there’s, especially in the ways that the online business space and the self-help self-development space have kind of merged in some kind of icky ways, it can often feel like, well, if you leave your business like you’re leaving your true self now.
Megan (35:26):
No, no, no. There’s no problem. It was something I actually worked with, worked with a client through this summer. They got offered, they, they had just started their design business. They were booked out with some juicy, juicy, juicy, juicy contracts. Like I’m, I’m talking five figure plus and mm-hmm. , so by those online business external metrics. Like she was rocking it and there was an, an opportunity came up for a, for a, you know, quote corporate position. And we had a couple of coaching sessions around it where, where my job as the coach was really facilitating her, asking her doing the, the, the self interrogation, her exploration of what would it mean if I put a pin in my own business to do this other job that would pay me exponentially more. Mm. I know where my paycheck is coming from. My hours are going to be cut in half.
Megan (36:30):
I can pick up my kids from school, I can drop them off. I have, I have a guaranteed number of days off. I have flexibility to work from home when I don’t wanna go in. And it was all of these things that she was like, this is all of the stuff that I wanted when I started my own business, but I know realistically I’m not going to get it in my own business for another, you know, two to four years. And it was, it was a, it was really hard and I don’t, and I don’t want to to paint it as any, like, this was an easy thing for her, but I was so, so proud that she eventually took that job and, and has sense, given me permission to talk about our work together. , let’s be clear, consent is important, but she, she was like, I’m still having a lot of feelings, but I would not, but I love, I’m loving my work. I’m loving my hours, I’m loving my pa like my pay. And that, it’s so, it’s, it’s such a, it’s such a great specific example of really interrogating what is best for me and how can I, in many ways divest from some of the ickier parts of the online business space in order to make that decision that is best for me.
Bonnie (37:45):
I love that story because I can imagine all of the thought and the deliberation and the time that not only went into those coaching sessions that you had with your client, but that they spent, you know, molding over that decision and exploring what was gonna be best for them and the quality of life that they wanted to experience. And it, I think it beautifully illustrates that sometimes this process of, of, you know, self-reflection and kind of interrogating some of the, the ways that your business is set up mm-hmm. , it’s not gonna be cut and dry. Mm-hmm. sometimes it’ll be, sometimes it’s gonna be this very easy clear like, oh, I’m gonna do this and I’m not gonna do that. Yeah. And that’s, but it’s not, it’s not like a sign that you’re doing anything wrong or that like you need to burn it all to the ground.
Bonnie (38:38):
If you find that there are some aspects of how your business is running that take you a little longer to unpack or take you a little longer to, um, really land on, on a way forward. It just simply means that, that you are investing time and care and, and consideration into these changes. And some of them are more complex because running a business in this very complex online business space is not the easiest of processes. And so it’s, it’s okay if this is a process that feels a little longer for you or it Yeah. Is something that takes a little bit more time and energy.
Megan (39:25):
Yeah. And it’s, I mean it, granted, I just as a human, I don’t, it’s probably not, it’s probably tied in some ways to neurodiversity, but it’s not like a hallmark of being neurodivergent. I love living in the nuance. I love living in the messy middle. I love living in the mess. I love digging into things and pulling them apart and looking at all of the pieces. And you don’t have to do that all of the time, certainly. But the more that you can be comfortable with the nuance, with the messy middle, with, with really asking yourself like, is this, is this what I want? Is this, does this work for me? Do I actually value this? The, the better, the better life is going to be. That feels trite, but , the better, the better your business is going to be if should you continue, should you decide that you want to continue running your business?
Megan (40:17):
And truly should you decide if in all of this, if after this episode you’re like, I am interrogating everything , and you get to a place where you’re like, I don’t think I want a business. I don’t think that’s actually what I want. Uh, I truly, I invite you slide into my dms. Uh, I love having DM chats with folks on Instagram. Uh, my handle is at, with Megan Doud, like truly slide into my dms. I will be your cheerleader through whatever decision that you are making. Because if it’s the best decision for you, it doesn’t matter what your peers are gonna tell you. It doesn’t, I mean, it does matter because we are social creatures. Mm-hmm. . But I, I cannot encourage enough folks to decide these things for themselves and not because the friends that you’ve made in the online business space will stay your friends, even if you don’t have a business, if they, if they always like, if they truly are a friend, right. If they were a client adjacent friend or a, like we’re just friends because we might make the sale for each other, then, then what you always had was a parasocial relationship. Mm-hmm. that took a turn. I did not anticipate, thanks for going on that journey with me, .
Bonnie (41:36):
Oh, I love it. Honestly, I could just like keep talking to you all day. I think that we’ve probably together had the idea for like four, maybe five other podcast episodes. So Yep. Who knows, who knows what’s gonna come from this. But
Megan (41:54):
Make a note.
Bonnie (41:56):
. I would love to know as we start to kind of wrap up our conversation today, what are, or is there a final piece of encouragement or advice or wisdom that comes to mind that you would like to share with the people who are tuning in today to really remember or to keep kind of top of mind as they go about making some of that, uh, those, doing some of those, you know, kind of internal interrogations about their systems, their businesses, their client experiences, the way that things have been operating.
Megan (42:33):
Start by just observing. Like no one is expecting you to make these changes. I don’t know, I don’t know when this when this episode will come out. I’ll share a quick story that I caught myself the other day being like, uh, cuz this is right before the holidays and I’m taking the last two weeks of the year off, or at least out of office. And the other day I was like, when I am off, I’m going to redo my entire website. . Then I caught myself was like, okay, what a great idea. Pump your brakes, you’re fine . And so if you’re listening to this and you’re like, I am all in, I bought myself a new notebook and a new pen because obviously those things are necessary when making big changes, uh,
Megan (43:22):
, maybe a new planner, maybe some new washy tape. I could just live in any stationary store for. Anyhow. If you’re all gun hosts, start by observing pump your breaks and realize like this is meant to be a process. This is meant to be something that’s gonna take time and frankly, isn’t necessarily something that you are ever done with. It’s just kind of when you pick it back up and when you put it back down. And the more you can grant yourself kindness in what you’re evaluating and observing, the better. It’s not a race, it’s not a competition, it’s not a, it’s not a demonstration of look how accessible I can be. And if that’s truly your impetus for like, oh, I need to make sure that people know that I’m accessible or I need to make sure that people know that I’m, I’m, I’m friendly to neuro divergent folks.
Megan (44:18):
If that’s where it starts and stops, that’s okay. But really like, allow yourself to sit with that and ask, okay, is there, is there anything else? Am I doing this for purely marketing reasons? What, what do I actually want? What do, oh, we’re coming first full circle with where we started, but really like, what do I actually value? And then once, as you’re interrogating those, those core values, asking yourself, if I center insert value here, what would I do? Then what would I choose? Then what would feel best? What would honor this value? And that’s where the really juicy stuff comes in. That’s where starting to make changes, we’re implementing new systems or breaking down your current system. That’s where it gets, that’s where it gets juicy. That’s where it gets good. That’s where it’s delicious.
Bonnie (45:12):
Ooh, delicious. I love that word choice and that and that usage. ,
Megan (45:17):
It’s, I like it, it, to me it makes sense to my brain.
Bonnie (45:20):
. No, I get that. I’m tracking with you and I really appreciate you sharing such beautiful and practical advice. I think that there’s, there’s a lot to, for people to kind of continue processing as we wrap up today’s conversation. And I know that everyone who’s tuning in today, well not everyone cuz I don’t really like making generalizations like that , but a lot of the folks who are tuning in today are probably gonna want to connect with you online and follow you and learn more about just this, this really awesome business that you’ve built. So where can people go on the interwebs to connect with you?
Megan (46:00):
All things are with Megan Doud. Uh, that’s my website with megan doud.com. My social handles are all at with Megan Doud, m e g a n d o w D. Um, and somehow we got through this entire interview without my mentioning my second business, , my gosh, which is my gosh called hello, c e o, which is specifically designed for neurodivergent humans and neuro divergent business owners. It is a resource hub and community for folks. Uh, so if in listening to this you’re like, oh, I’m definitely like, I don’t have a diagnosis, but I am neurodivergent or I, I don’t know if I’m neuro divergent, but I definitely do things differently. I definitely have strong opinions about how businesses run online. Come on over.
Bonnie (46:42):
I love that. And for those who are tuning in today, as always, I’m gonna have all of Megan’s details, all the links, all the things@brandstrategypodcast.com in the show notes for today’s episode. So you can head on over there, you can follow all the things she does. You can connect with her on all the social networks. And she also has created this incredible page on her site with all kinds of free goodies. And so she has some really great free downloads that, uh, I would highly recommend checking out if today’s episode has really resonated with you and you’d like to dive deeper into things like your brand values and how you are, uh, really carrying those, those concepts into this business that you’re building and, and the life that you’re building as well.
Megan (47:33):
Well, thank you so much for, for giving that a little plug. I really love giving away free stuff, ,
Bonnie (47:41):
What a great thing to love doing. And you know, I think that there’s so much value to be had in, of course, you know, before we started recording and I had to like hop on over real quick and take a peek at all the goodies that we’re living on that page. And, uh, I can tell that there’s been a huge amount of care that has gone into putting those resources together. And, um, do you have one or two that you’d especially recommend to the, to people who are tuning in in today?
Megan (48:06):
When you take my qu everyone has a quiz. I love a quiz. Who doesn’t love a quiz? Uh, you, you get to know your type immediately after you take the quiz. That’s not hidden behind an email. What is hidden behind an email is a full dossier on your type. And I am in the midst of refreshing all of those dossiers. So they’ll be a little bit juicier, they’ll have a few more action items and there will be an option to purchase an e-book on all of the types. If you’re one of those people who’s like, I, yes, I’ll give you $10, here’s, I just need to know all about all of them.
Bonnie (48:42):
Amazing. How exciting.
Megan (48:45):
Um, so that’s, that’s, I think that’s what I would recommend folks. Like if you’re really, if if the things that you’ve heard today are, are really resonating with you and you’re like, I wanna know more about like, how do, how do I work? I think that quiz is, it’s, it’s on your, your compass archetypes, your connection archetypes, how do you naturally connect with folks? What is your natural internal compass for how you like to operate? And then how can you use those natural strengths to your advantage? And I think personally, I mean, granted, I’m biased as heck, I wrote it , but I think that it’s an incredibly helpful place to start if you’re resonating with everything and don’t quite know where to start.
Bonnie (49:27):
Amazing resource. Thanks so much for sharing that with us. I definitely, definitely wanna check that out myself, . And for those who are tuning in today at the time of recording, I know that, you know, Megan is putting the finishing touches on those thoughtful updates. But as you’re tuning in to this today, those details are now live. So definitely, definitely head on over to get your hands on your results through her incredible free quiz. And like I said, um, brand strategy podcast.com, click on the latest episode link and all of these details are gonna be in the show notes. Megan, thank you so much for joining me, for just having this conversation with me. I, I mean, honestly, k keep just talking to you all day because I have loved, loved connecting with you and learning from you and I’m just really grateful for this opportunity to have this conversation with you.
Megan (50:19):
Thank you for having me. Thank you for giving me the space to be loquacious, to go on tangents and thank you for being the one who was watching the clock because I absolutely would’ve just kept talking with you for hours and been like, oh, are we, have we had half an hour yet? , ,
Bonnie (50:37):
Oh my goodness. I just think that you were such a fantastic human and I’m so glad that our paths have crossed in this way. And for those who are tuning in today, I hope that you’re walking away with some, some really juicy nuggets, um, from, from Megan as well. But with all that being said, I always appreciate y’all who are tuning into the brand strategy podcast. I’m grateful that you’re a part of this online community and, um, your support means that we get to keep doing this. So if today’s episode resonated with you and you have an industry friend or a biz bestie who you think could also benefit from this, be sure to share the link, share the love. And as always, I’m cheering y’all on from Waco.
Bonnie (51:22):
Thank you so much for joining me today. Friend. Before you go, I would be so grateful to receive your feedback on the brand strategy podcast. If you enjoyed this episode or the podcast in general has helped you grow your brand, I’d really appreciate it if you left us a review in iTunes. Your positive reviews enable the brand strategy podcast to continue to grow and reach like-minded creatives just like you. Thank you for all your support and encouragement as together we pursue building brands with purpose and intention. Until next time, I’m cheering you on from Waco.
leave a comment