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Are you practicing and growing your skillset as a designer? Jennifer Sanjines joins this conversation to share how you can grow your design business with a new skill. She also shares how she’s grown her business with Webflow and the efficient experience it has created for her customers.
Jennifer Sanjines is a website designer who helps service-based business owners renovate their outdated website and turn it into a beautiful, strategic, online home. She’s also an educator for web designers, teaching them her strategic design process and how to fully build websites using the Webflow platform. Her biz friends have dubbed her the “left-brained creative” for her creative ways to teach the tech side of website design and development to both experienced and brand new designers. She’s a mama to 3 kids through adoption and 1 the “normal” way, and she homeschools all 4 of them. She loves soda water more than coffee and is convinced Oreos and 90s music fix all bad days.
Exploring All Design Avenues in Your Design Business
As a designer, whether brand, graphic, or web, you’ve likely established a service niche that you want to serve. Growth in your business doesn’t just come from new clients, but also in exploring different avenues in your skillset through design. Rather than limiting yourself to what you know and turning away business because you’re not comfortable with it, Jennifer encourages designers to explore all avenues to truly understand their skills and talents to see where they thrive.
Mistakes to Avoid When Adding Web Design to Your Services
1. Piece-milling a package together. Putting together what your clients want is so much more important than just doing what other designers are doing.
2. Not understanding how all of the pieces of content fit together.
3. Not understanding general design best practices.
How to Challenge Yourself as a Designer
Building confidence as a designer comes with time, but it also comes with practice. The best way to challenge yourself is to give yourself a fake client, outside of your ideal client. There are so many different ways to practice your skillset by creating fake work.
You could recreate something you saw for practice (not for resale) or pick a company to build a website for. When you focus in on how things fit together without the back and forth with a client, it becomes really helpful.
Building Websites on Webflow
While Jennifer didn’t start her business with Webflow, she took time to explore the platform to see if it was a good fit for her clients. Ultimately, thinking of her clients is what pushed her to move to Webflow.
Clients have to come first, despite your preferences. With keeping the client in mind, many of her clients were coming back for updates rather than doing it on their own like they originally thought. Webflow has an amazing feature, called “Editor” that allows clients to edit features of the site that you as a designer set the permission for them to edit.
The features of Webflow essentially helped Jennifer build out a service for her customers that served them best.
Catch the Show Notes
Get to Know Jennifer (2:23)
Exploring All Design Avenues in Your Design Business (6:34)
Adding Web Design Services to Charge More (10:26)
Mistakes to Avoid When Adding Web Design to Your Services (16:42)
Challenge Yourself as a Designer (25:06)
Encouragement (36:16)
RESOURCES MENTIONED
https://www.sitemakerstudio.com/
https://www.instagram.com/sitemakerstudio/
https://www.facebook.com/sitemakerstudio/
https://www.sitemakerstudio.com/freebies
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Review the Transcript:
Bonnie:
Hi, friends and welcome to the brand strategy podcast. A show created to equip you with the inspiration, encouragement, and clarity. You need to build the brand of your dreams. I’m your host, Bonnie Bakhtiari brand designer, strategist, and founder of the Lumetri from sustainable strategy to part felt encouragement. Each episode is designed to equip you with the tools you need to chase after your dreams, because you deserve a brand that empowers you to do what you love, connects with your dream clients and offers a deep sense of fulfillment along the way. So grab a cup of coffee and join me on this journey. Won’t Liam
Bonnie:
Friends. Welcome back to the brand strategy podcast. Where today we are talking about how to grow your design business with web flow with Jennifer Sanjines.. Jennifer, if you haven’t met her before, she is an incredibly talented website designer based in beautiful Tennessee, she helps service-based business owners renovate their outdated websites and turn them into beautiful strategic online homes for their businesses. She’s also an educator for web designers and she teaches them her strategic design process and how to fully build websites using the web flow platform. Her best friends have dubbed her the left brain creative for her creative ways to teach the tech side of website design and development to both experience and brand new designers. And she is a mom to three kids through adoption, one through the normal way and homeschools all four of them, which I have so much respect for Jennifer. Thank you so much for joining us. I’m so excited to have you on the podcast today.
Jennifer:
Thank you for having me Bonnie. That’s so fun to meet you in person ish, to get to hear your voice and see you have listened to podcasts for a long time and seeing you online in online homes for a long time. So this is really fun.
Bonnie:
I’m so excited to get to talk with you, and it’s just so great to get to connect in this way. And, uh, you know, obviously before we hit recording you and I were chatting a little bit and just getting to hear a little bit more about who you are and what you do, and just this incredible life that you and your family are building in Tennessee is so awesome. So actually, would you mind sharing a little bit about who you are and your credible business with us today so that people can just get to know you a little bit more?
Jennifer:
Yeah. Um, so I am based in Tennessee and Bonnie asked me if I would ever leave here. Basically. I was like, no, you’d have to take me kicking and screaming. We love it here. And it’s been great to be able to work from home and have my own business. I kind of use the tagline that I started my business while I was in labor. And so the short version of that is friend of mine. That was actually my doula. She was describing to me while I was actually in labor, that she is about our website and she was telling my mom about it and she couldn’t update it. And she was complaining about the developer and I turned over to her and I remember saying, I’m sorry, like I know I’m completely drugged up and like tired. And I was, but I was like, that’s like, that cannot happen.
Jennifer:
You need. And so we ended up a few months later building her website and I had built ones for little side businesses and things that we had done in the past. And I just fell in love with it completely, um, from the client end to like actually the building, all of it. And so, you know, started building websites probably about eight years ago, but then actually officially started my business about four years ago when I had my youngest son. And so it’s allowed me to, you know, be home this year with homeschooling. We’ll see how that goes. If we keep doing that, that’s like half the world right now. And then, you know, just things like my husband’s job, he traveled up until COVID. And so just that flexibility, I didn’t have that when I worked full time. And then just finding ways, kind of like this with networking with people and meeting people online, I’ve been able to bring back in some of my favorite things that I did love about when I worked full time.
Jennifer:
Like just having kind of, you know, the buddy beside you that you like ask about that. So I found that through like group coaching programs or having, um, honestly kind of having a boss that was, it’s hard to like be your own boss. And so having people in sort of mentor roles for me has been really beneficial. And, um, but yeah, I’ve, I’ve stuck web design the entire time. I’ve kind of changed over time. Maybe like the level of businesses that I’ve served or different things like that. And we’ve three different platforms, which I’m sure will come up, but as far as just yeah, websites, it’s been great. And it’s been really great to see that you always have something more to learn for sure about whatever it is you claim to be like your thing. And I’m like, actually there’s like so many more things you could do with it, but I do love having my own business and it has, um, definitely started my family well for me to be able to carve out time for it. I mean, sometimes that’s early in the morning or late at night, but you know, just if we have a busy season with family, I can slow business down. If we have, if I need a busy season for business, I can, um, you know, slow family stuff down or give people more responsibilities. So I am very happy that I’ve chosen to go this route and you probably it’d be hard to put me back into a full-time job without, uh, being my own boss now, too. I just, I really love it a lot.
Bonnie:
That makes so much sense. And I think that, um, so many people, especially like if we’ve gone from working in a more traditional nine to five to them being our own bosses and running our own businesses, it can, it can be like just a lot of resistance to the idea of ever leaving that freedom and going back to a more traditional corporate position for sure.
Jennifer:
Yeah. Yeah. I’m like, I’m thinking like all the random stuff that we like kids have a doctor appointment tomorrow morning, like, oh, how would I do that all the time? I’m very blessed to be able to have the flexibility of it, for sure.
Bonnie:
Um, I love that. I love hearing that. Um, and one thing that I really think is incredible about the work that you do is not only do you work with service-based entrepreneurs through web design, but also the coaching aspect that you offer for fellow web designers and the education that you do in that way. Okay. Actually, so before we hopped on this call, this was probably like maybe a few months ago. You and I were chatting on Instagram. And I think that we started getting into a conversation, um, in our DMS about how website design can be such an incredible value add to your services as a designer. But, um, I know that there can be a lot of kind of confusion and especially some hesitancy on a designer’s end of things, especially if they don’t feel like they have any prior web design experience, or if they think that web design is this kind of big, scary and complex kind of thing. So I love to hear your take on why website design is such an incredible way to grow your design business. And if you have any thoughts on maybe how it can be a little less scary for people who are just getting started, that would be incredible.
Jennifer:
Yeah. From the value add perspective. I think one thing that is tough and just like from having talked with multiple brand designers, and then I’ve done a little bit of branding work, but I’m fully willing to admit like that is not my zone of genius. Um, so I definitely make friends with Brandon centers very quickly. And, um, one of the things I’ve noticed though, although some of the strategy pieces can, um, actually can quite overlap and sometimes they’re very similar web design, oftentimes in the mind of the client is very tangible. And so they can, a lot of times more easily like measure an ROI on that or, um, or literally have like an exact, like, we want this many pages or there’s just a lot more things that you can measure with a website that is unfortunately, um, it’s not that you can’t measure that, I guess, with the brand, but the clients have a harder time understanding how you would measure that with a brand.
Jennifer:
Um, even though in my opinion, the brand touches way, many way, like way more points than the actual website itself. It’s such that such a small piece of that overall brand. But I do think having that as a service, um, or even having it as just something that you are willing to hand off. Um, I know for me personally, in this could go with like, I don’t know, say I started to want to run Facebook ads or something. I would want to know personally just like a little bit about it before I would hand it off. And so I think that’s, um, and actually I was talking to a girl yesterday and we were kind of chatting about that and she was like, I just need to know like enough about it. I don’t need to become great at it, but I need to know enough about it to then know, do I want somebody else to do this?
Jennifer:
Or, Hey, I actually like enjoy this enough to want to dig in deeper. And so I think that is one place where maybe some people could just put this wall up as if they’re like, they’re great at branding and maybe clients ask them. They’re just like, no, I don’t do this. Um, instead of maybe taking that time to just learn a little bit about it, and then either you a learn that you really love it and you want to explore it more and then maybe you find, if you need people at one point in time to like help fill those gaps or you, you learn enough about it. And you’re like, actually, you know what, I really don’t love this. And I really would love to, um, just tell the client, like have that boundary and say, no, I don’t do that. Or have people to refer things out to.
Jennifer:
Um, but I think a lot of times we just are kind of one way or the other, because I could do, I could make the same argument with websites and branding. Right. I could just say, Nope, I don’t do branding, like come to me with it. And for the most part, my clients do come to me with it. But if I’m not willing to even like, explore that or learn about it, I think that says a lot when you’re just willing to go into that next, I, it could be marketing or any other kind of that comes after or within the things you’re doing. Like learn enough about it, that then you kind of know what that next step is for you, but it definitely from a client’s and I have found that they much more quickly see the value in a website. And, and like I said, I think it’s just because it’s like very trackable and they can kind of, oh, we got this many inquiries we’re alive.
Jennifer:
They’re not adding up that, like that inquiry also saw your logo and also saw the patterns and also, you know, heard the voice messaging that you did through all the branding work. But they really like see the, oh, well they made my contact page and they filled out the contact page. So great. The website did its job. Um, so that feels really tangible to them. So I think that’s one thing to keep in mind, for sure. As far as like adding the service or just the value add of it, it’s that the clients really see that benefit, um, with a website sometimes more than the branding
Bonnie:
That makes, that makes a lot of sense. And kind of keeping that in mind of thinking about how website design from a designer standpoint can be such an incredible way to take. Let’s say, for example, you’re a designer and you do specialize in brand design and brand strategy, but you’re wanting to add on web design because you’re wanting to kind of like level up your services and offer more of that sort of, you know, kind of like comprehensive branding experience. Do you think that because it’s easier for clients to perceive kind of a trackable measurable amount of ROI on their website design specifically, do you think that it’s easier for designers to then charge more when they add website design as part of their services?
Jennifer:
Oh yeah, definitely. And I think not only in charging more, but just being able to be more involved. And I know that kind of can come and go with people’s personalities. Like some people may, and I’ve even had seasons where I very much was like, I’m just going to do this project. And like afterwards, like, please don’t ask me about doing your social media or don’t ask me about like, updating your website. Like I just need to be like done with this project, but for the most part. And I think as people build that experience, you begin to, uh, want to attract more clients that hopefully if they’re great clients, you love working with them, you want to continue that relationship. And so a website in so many cases, especially for a brand designer that that’s just a logical next step. And then that website needs, I’m not even want to say maintenance.
Jennifer:
I think sometimes people think like things breaking, but truly like an ongoing, I’ve heard it called like a creative director kind of role, but just that you’re kind of there, um, not as a direct employee, but just as another person that’s kind of constantly bouncing ideas off them or like they say, you know, we have, I was actually onsite with a client yesterday and they have a big event they’re going to push, um, in June. And we were just going through like their signup forms, you know, I could have just stuck with like, oh gosh, but the sign up form button on the site. But we were actually walking through the form and talking through like, what is the experience for a new person versus somebody who’s been before and, and just kind of bouncing ideas off of that. And that takes that so much farther than just like I did your website by, um, and or did your brand and, and by, and so making those things, um, because that really was that example yesterday, that really was a conversation of like from the brand through the, and how a new person coming here, you know, I, I just told him, I’m like, they cannot be frustrated with this form.
Jennifer:
Like they have to be, it could be a little more difficult for somebody who’s been before, but for this event specifically, if you have a new person and this is the first time they’re experiencing coming here, they have to like, things have to run smooth. And so that really is, um, in essence, like their brand and by something misfunctioning on the website or, um, you know, if we can make a form more accessible or whatever, so I can think it can be so detailed as something like that. But a web design, I think often is like kind of a next natural step for somebody to then implement all of the things that you’ve like strategically worked through with the client. And so instead of handing that off and then, you know, risking that somebody else implements it like completely wrong or kind of an unravel, some of the hard work that you guys did together, I think it’s a really nice step and definitely worth starting the whole, you know, adding a lot to your fees to be able to offer that for sure.
Bonnie:
Oh, that makes so much sense. And I love that idea of kind of stepping into more of that almost like creative director type role with your clients then, because you’re getting to partner with them to create this strategic brand from the ground up, create all of those visual identity assets and then weave that throughout their brands online home, which is like, I don’t know. I just, I, this is where I get to kind of nerd out a little bit about design as a whole, but I think that’s just a really awesome amount of possibility. And kind of the, the story you were sharing about how the other day you were actually getting to, you know, sit there with your client and walk through with them what the user experience was going to look like. Especially with that, that specific forum. That’s just, especially for people listening, who love to collaborate with their clients and love to, you know, kind of walk them through the process in that way. I can just see that being not only a huge value add, but also a lot of fun.
Jennifer:
Yeah. And I think all of us, um, you know, we kind of said before we started the suit, like, I just love talking to other adults at this point. And so if you’ve done the work to like really choose those clients wisely, and then especially if you are charging appropriately to include those things, I think then you’re not like resentful that they keep asking you for help on things or whatever. So I think it, you know, as long as it’s the right type of relationship, and that definitely speaks to like being really connected to whatever it is that brand, you know, maybe they stand for something or you really like what they do, or maybe you have experience in something that just kind of like, what is that common thread there? Not just your client, but like, if you have some other type of common thread with them, I think that makes it easier to, and I know that in the past, I’ve heard, you mentioned, especially for your program in your course that they don’t have to have any experience doing that.
Jennifer:
And so one thing I’ve found really fun and interesting, I’ve noticed it in my students as well, is that like that piece I mentioned about going through their form, that was honestly way more of just my opinion as like just an internet user or as a mom. It was like an event that kids would come to. Um, that’s more what I was sharing with that client. It wasn’t even like some crazy amount of website design knowledge that I have acquired or whatever. And so I think as an encouragement to all of you that do branding or graphics or any other type of, even if you already do web design that you don’t discount, like you are a user of the things that you are designing, even if, you know, just a website in general. And so I tell students and clients, I’m like, look, while we’re working together, like pay attention to the way you use things, you know, when you swap your phone, like which way do you expect things to go?
Jennifer:
If you go to something it loads slowly, are you frustrated? If you have to search for something, you can’t find a search bar, like make notes of those things and that stuff doesn’t take really any extra education, which is so cool, but your client’s not going to see that at all. And so I think when you bring that kind of stuff into the strategy piece of the web design, um, number one, they’re really happy and impressed that you thought of all that. And then it just makes everything fit together so much better. Um, when, like I said, that creative director, I heard somebody mentioned that and I was like, I messaged her. I was like, this is, that’s the best term I’ve heard to describe that. Like, you really are in so many other pieces of their business. I’m willing to just be that kind of that extra year. Everybody loves that. We, we all want kind of an extra person to bounce ideas off of. And so I think a lot of our potential clients want that as well, even if they wouldn’t maybe voice that they are really appreciative of it when you, when you come in and serve that role for them.
Bonnie:
Right. Right. I don’t think that it takes kind of like a special kind of person or a very like specific kind of project for someone to be like, no, actually I didn’t appreciate your expert and guidance every step of the way. You know, usually not what, not what our clients are communicating. I’m curious. So thinking through how designers, you know, okay. If, if someone’s listening and they’re getting excited, you know, hearing you talk about how web design can be just as incredible way to serve their clients at a higher level, what are mistakes, if any, that they should be looking out for when they think about first adding web design as a part of their services.
Jennifer:
Yes. So I’m really glad that you asked this question because I it’s one of those things, you know, sometimes when, when you’re messaging things, you are like, I hope this is the way people were saying it or whatever, but this is a few of these mistakes that I would just want to mention. I do constantly like, hear this, come back to me. Um, so I really do think that these will resonate with people, hopefully. So one was like piecemealing a packages together. And so it may be maybe that’s how they started out doing their branding packages. Like, oh, I admire this person and this person, this person online, or they have beautiful stuff. So let me see what they offer. Okay, cool. They offer a logo or, you know, take that over to web design. They offer five pages and it costs this much and they build it on this platform and they offer support for this many weeks or whatever.
Jennifer:
And I, although I don’t think that’s like a terrible way to start it. Like, that’s better than just like not having a process. Um, but piecemealing kind of a package together and, and, or offering what you want to as the designer, instead of truly listening, um, over time to, to clients, what they’re needing, what they’re expecting, especially as you work in like different niches. So I don’t think that you have to specialize your web or branding is on to a directly special, like, I happened to work with a lot of interior designers and we talked about before, that’s kind of my background, but using that as an example, like I’ve listened over time to the things they were kind of asking for. Like after the fact or things that I was trying to include, that we ended up like never needing, like we never would build a certain page.
Jennifer:
And then things I saw them kind of lapse on or, or like not take real seriously. I was like, this is a super important piece that like a portfolio paid individual page, not just showing the pictures. Um, I stand on a soap box of lack of tell about the project, like tell the story behind it, that type of thing. And so now that I know, um, in a lot of cases, when I’m working with that type of client, I’ve kind of structured packages and things around that and what they need. And even if in my mind, I’m like, I don’t do social media graphics, but if that’s, if that’s something that would really help their website and help them then, okay, we’ll make some canvas graphics for you and that’s including your website package. And so I think instead of, I guess, a piece millions, a good word for it, I guess, instead of pulling pieces together from everybody, else’s that you see from those packages.
Jennifer:
And again, like, I know there’s kind of some times trends of like done in a day or two week website or whatever. Like right now, if I try to design a website in two weeks, I would absolutely fall on my face, like with kids and families or whatever. And then sometimes you might see one that you think like, well, this person has a process that’s three months. Like if that sounds awful for you, like then don’t pull that piece from somebody else’s and then a cup, two other things I thought of were, um, a lot of times not doing like a mock-up of something. And those, if that like word sounds weird, um, or whatever, send me a message. I’m happy to talk about those in depth, but just basically like an image of the site that you’re going to build a lot of times people think, especially with these like drag and drop builders and stuff, they just want to go straight in and they see the mock-ups kind of as a step in between.
Jennifer:
That’s like a time-waster and I’ve continued to challenge my students on that. And people have come back and be like, oh, I’m so sorry. I tried it. And now it’s wonderful. Like, so definitely, um, the second mistake I’d say would be not doing some type of like pre wireframe mockups, something to go off of when you actually go in to do the design, you don’t want to jump straight in. And then lastly, like not understanding, um, kind of how con like content and just all the pieces that fit together that make a website understanding like how those things fit together and then just general design best practices. So I mentioned a second ago, like when you use your own phone, like you click a button, whether you realize it or not, you expect it to do something. And like it’s a slide from a certain way.
Jennifer:
Or, um, if you open up and then the text is like huge or it’s really small, like those things frustrate you. And so just being very aware of those things and educating yourself on like some of those, like real basic things that we don’t want to get creative and change, like I’m on everybody’s side, then I think that’s been helpful for me to remember over time too. Like we don’t have to recreate the wheel on everything. Um, so just becoming really familiar with like general web design practices, like how things fit together and all that, and that doesn’t take years and years or courses and courses to figure all that out. It’s sometimes even just thinking to how you use things as a, as a user,
Bonnie:
That’s a really awesome advice about, you know, trusting our own experiences and what we’ve seen because you’re right. We are, we are using websites every single day, like multiple times a day. And there’s so much that we’re learning as we walk through other people’s websites that can help influence the way that we design, if we do offer web design. And I think it’s almost like so deceptively, it’s almost deceptively simple because it’s like, oh, well of course, of course I know how I would expect, you know, a contact form to behave or how I would expect, you know, a transition to happen if I clicked on a button, but we, we almost like discredit that personal experience because we think that we like quote unquote need some magical kind of expertise. And so I really love that you shared that and you kind of like shared that as no trust yourself you’ve have used websites before you do know something like don’t, don’t believe that you need some kind of like mythical level of knowledge on.
Jennifer:
Yeah. And I don’t know if like, when you worked more heavily with clients, if you would have, um, they might give examples of things or whatever, but I feel like we’re sometimes really quick to be guilty of like trying to come up with something really new and that a is hard. And then B is like, that’s not what our, sometimes some of my clients will send me like the most simple looking websites and I’m thinking like I’m capable of so much more like, but that’s not what they want. Like they want this like beautifully clean, simple, minimal site. And so, you know, also they’re removing yourself out of that. Um, as far as that goes. And I think sometimes we, we get into that trap too, like, because we see every angle of the branding or the web design or whatever. And, um, and especially, especially graphic design, like I could make this typography do this or whatever it is and your client is like, I just want my logo to be pretty like, and so, you know, all the bits and pieces that go into that, but I think we can definitely get hung up sometimes on like trying to create something really new or that nobody’s ever seen before.
Jennifer:
And I’m like, actually, when you log onto a website specifically, and you like, can’t even figure out how to scroll down the page because it’s like loading all this stuff, or it happens to scroll a different direction, like how frustrating. And that was somebody who like tried something new, but in that case it was like a flop.
Bonnie:
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. There’s, you know, things are kind of classic and like familiar for a reason, especially in some mediums, like what design, we know how to engage with those sites when they’re laid out and, you know, some kind of familiar way. But if we’re making people like hunt all over for like the services page or the contact page or something like that, then I think you said this earlier, like that can frustrate people because they’re expecting a different reaction or a different kind of experience as a whole.
Jennifer:
Yeah. Yep. And I think knowing, um, like all of us are, I think people are like in their own, they’re all creative anyway, but I think sometimes I would definitely be this way. If I did branding were heavily, I would just be too, you would try to be too creative in like the wrong ways. And so I have definitely have, um, spoken to that point before where I think we sometimes are not careful, like there are plenty of avenues to use that creativity. And, but sometimes if we exercise them in the wrong way, that ends up in a negative effect for the client and then for their users. I mean, ultimately it’s about their users and I’ve I say that all the time, I’m like, I don’t actually care what my clients want. Like I really care more about what their clients want and it’s more about them anyway. And so that’s kind of a constant reference point for me and clients. And I teach that to students. Like you really need to be going to that third person sort of as, as your benchmark for things, when you’re doing it and make it a little bit of less about like, what’s being like, they’re just asking what they’ve seen or something they like or whatever, but it ultimately has to come down to that final, that final person using what you built
Bonnie:
That makes so much sense. So what are some kind of practical actions that those listening can take in order to start to move in this direction of, okay. Adding web design to their services, charging more, serving their clients at that kind of higher level, especially if this is something that’s kind of a new idea to them, what are some practical steps you would recommend they take? And, and are there any of these actions that can potentially help them feel more confident in this, in this growth?
Jennifer:
Yeah, I, so one thing on the confidence and I, I do think some of that comes over time. Um, but if you are not like practicing and doing things over that time, like somebody could just have four years pass and somebody else got four years pass the practice the whole time. Like clearly the person who practiced more, gonna have more confidence. So I do, I do think sometimes I noticed that in myself, early on, I was like looking or trying to, I was trying to like do things to, to push that confidence. And I have noticed over time, some of that has, has just come with time. So although that’s not, everybody’s probably favorite answer. Some of it comes with time, but practicing and just giving yourself, like, I love giving, give yourself a fake client. If you had somebody that was like a business that needed something done, that maybe it was somebody local to you, or like a family friend, that’s a great way to practice too.
Jennifer:
But I will say that, um, because then when you have that kind of competing is not the right word, but when you have sort of that opposing, like, you may suggest this, but they may want it this way and you may want to try this, but they may not want you to try this. So if you come up with like a fake client or if you can reiterate something that’s already been done, so these don’t necessarily even have to be, they could be portfolio pieces if you like copied a live site. So say there’s a, a template that you love or a certain style of website that you love and you are, you know, you’re just creating it to practices. You’re not doing it to like steal it from the person clearly, but seeing, you know, how did they do that? And like, why does this piece fit together with this or recreating something that you’ve seen, maybe you saw it and the way they had something divided or a certain section, you’re like, oh, I don’t really even love those colors together.
Jennifer:
Or what would it be like if I took the same exact design that’s for a photographer and like, what would I change to make it into a vet’s office or something like that. So I think if you’re able to almost be, this is one area where I think if you were in your own head, it’s actually kind of nice because instead of having that back and forth, um, yet instead of the back and forth is great later, but in the very beginning, I think instead of having it back and forth, just getting to do something that you love and nobody’s like squashing, something that you’ve done. Um, you know, you can pull photos from anywhere, like find all the fancy types, like all the different stuff, and then really focus in on learning, like how things fit together and being able to do that again, without the back and forth with a client.
Jennifer:
I think that’s really helpful if you have the time. I know sometimes we’re stretched for time and it’s even hard to like market ourselves or do anything. So sometimes this professional development piece and like learning new skills is a little tough to fit in. But I think doing that, giving yourself a fake client, another challenge I’ve seen issued, and I’ve done it as well as my design assistant has done it before where, um, we would take in, I use a program called Figma, but you could use XD. You could literally, I have students who just used CAMBA, whatever, but you pick like a random photo and you don’t, don’t like swap it out time and time again, just like literally Unsplash, you know, maybe say, okay, I’m going to do the fifth photo that comes up or something, pick a photo and then build just the little top what we would call like above the fold.
Jennifer:
So just the top piece of the website that you would see when you log in and, you know, pick like from that photo is that, you know, say it’s a, I did one, it was like a watch. And so I was like, okay, it’s like the watch store. So, um, you know, I’d put the different typefaces and just kind of played with like, just the design of the top. So it wasn’t, I wasn’t worried about the whole site, but we did that for multiple days. Um, me and my design assistants and my students, and it was really neat to see like different things that they would never be clients of mine. Like I don’t imagine really ever working with like a watch store. So it kind of pushed me out of my, um, out of my normal zone to be able to do some of that. And I think just, you know, challenging yourself more with like the longer, I don’t know, um, longer term relationships with clients. I think thinking through, like, if you’re just gonna start doing website, think through the people who you’ve already got those relationships with and, um, maybe some of them would be willing to collaborate with you or let you design something for them. And you can make use of those relationships that you already have.
Bonnie:
Um, I absolutely love that advice about kind of looking within your existing network for opportunities. I think that especially, um, when we’re wanting to dive into something new, kind of a new level of service or a new kind of service, like web design specifically, it can be so easy to think like, okay, I need to go out and we need to like find all these new, all these new clients. But if, if we’re actually looking within our existing networks and our existing communities, there’s so many possibilities there. So I really, really loved that. That was a piece of advice you shared too. Um, so we don’t have to over-complicate things, but one question that I had for you kind of hearing about, you know, just the hands-on way you approach website design and the incredible challenges that you work through with your web design students. I know that you love building websites on Webflow, and I would be so curious, what is it about web flow that you love coming back to? And why is that the specific platform that you like to point your students to?
Jennifer:
Yes. So there, um, it’s kind of twofold. So in one respect, like the clients. So we said like they have to come in so many ways they have to come first. Like I could have all the preferences in the world, um, and do have quite a few preferences, um, when I’m doing projects, but at the end of the day, like I’m a, um, be, you know, grouchy about using some platform or some in or something, whatever. But if that’s really what they need and it’s going to be best for them, then that’s what we would use. Or I would turn that project down or send it to somebody else. And so with keeping the client in mind, um, and keeping them first, I found so many of my clients were number one, if they needed, um, any type of like large update, like even pages at our sales page or something like that later on, they were coming back to me and they were not, um, as they originally had said where, like, they thought they would want to add pages or, oh, I want to be able to do this.
Jennifer:
I want to be able to change this. And they really thought they would want to do all that stuff. And the more, um, the more I ran into over time that they actually were just coming back to me to do so many of those things. And they only really wanted to like, change the text or just like change out an image, like real small stuff, but not actually wanting to go back in and do design, um, what law has an amazing feature and it’s literally just called their editor. And, um, I had seen a few other things about it. This is like years ago, I’d seen other things about it. And, um, at one point somebody showed me a video, just so the editor and I was like, sold. Like, this is what my clients need. It’s they see the site completely live. They literally have a little, um, log-in at the bottom.
Jennifer:
It’s about the size of like a cookie bar and they log in and they can go to anything on the page. Here’s the best part that you have set that they can edit. Um, and instead of it being this drag and drop experience where they, um, like my Squarespace clients would like fling things across the page and be very used that, and then my WordPress people with like Elementor or divvy and those things, they would like just, again, it’s kind of a drag and drop. Like if you drag it in the wrong place, that was a huge, or make it smaller or whatever. And so they can’t mess with any of that stuff, but they can change out entire paragraphs or you can set limits to, um, you know, how many characters something can be, or this stays, you know, they can change like the headings and the SEO and all this stuff by looking at it live, but without like breaking any of the site and again, and also from a client perspective, things that people really love.
Jennifer:
Um, I give the analogy of like an apple, a universe versus like a PC or Android universe. And so Squarespace is similar to this and I think even show it’s kind of similar, but what blow is like kind of most things in one. So there’s security and you pay a little bit more for some of that stuff, but you’re not having to go in and like update plugins and, and worry about that kind of stuff from a security standpoint. And so that was really important to clients as well, too. I’ve had some past clients that we’ve had on different setups and they like still have never logged in and pushed. I’m like the whole thing’s going to break. Like, so when I realized how important those things were to clients, um, that definitely sold me on it. And then from my end, I said, I have a lot of preferences for doing things.
Jennifer:
And some of the most simple things that would frustrate me in other platforms, like not being able to copy and paste something, or I would get it mostly designed the way I wanted, but I felt like I was kind of compromising on like, this is 90% good, but I would want this like one element or the certain section to just be able to have like a little bit more customization. And I have taught myself a lot of CSS, but I would, by no means like call myself a coder. Like I can’t develop apps or anything like that. Like I can find my way around. And I was honestly spending a lot of like time resource and energy, um, into classes and programs and mentor and all kinds of stuff for like Squarespace and other things to learn that. And so to be able to do that inside of Weblo, um, it again, takes that base knowledge of like, you need to know kind of the structure of like, okay, websites are made out of like sections.
Jennifer:
And we kind of scroll down the page and we see a section and another section, another section. And once you understand that piece of it, it just allows for like complete design freedom, but it still follows like the code is still correct. And it’s like really good clean code. So there’s like a lot of my techie, nerdy pieces of it too. Um, but just being able to create anything if I want a slider or again, it’s just what serving that client, if they need a piece that, um, sorry, the, my widget doesn’t have that, or I don’t know how to, like, I don’t know what plugin we’d use for that. I don’t have to say that to clients anymore. And then from a student perspective, you know, challenging them like, Hey, have you ever honestly, have you ever designed something? Maybe they did do a mock-up and I’ve had them say this.
Jennifer:
I said it to them and they like admitted it to me. I said, have you designed like a mock up or drawn something up? And you literally held yourself back from like, pushing that design a little farther because you knew deep down, well, my, my plugin or my widget or my dragon drop thing, won’t let me do that. So I need this, you know, this blog block or whatever, to look like this, because I can’t make it look different. You don’t have that in flow. And it’s, that has been just so freeing, um, for me and for students and, and to get to say to the clients, like, if we can imagine it, we, um, you know, should be able to build it. And that’s been really, really cool to see. I almost had to flex my creative muscle even more because I was for years kind of in that habit of like, oh, well I know this block does this. And so I need to make this thing look this way. Um, instead of imagining like how much more you could actually do with these different pieces of a website. So yeah, lots of reasons I can, there’s tons of them. I’ve done like a reels and all kinds of other series and things on it, but those were kind of the two main divides of why I’ve just I’ve switched everything to it. I really, really love it.
Bonnie:
So amazing and friends for those who are tuning in today, Jennifer actually has this really incredible beginner’s guide to web flow. It’s completely free resource that she’s created. And she’s going to share that with us. So if you I’ll, of course, I’ll have that in the show notes for today’s episode. So you can just go to brand strategy, podcast.com and get that as well. But I’m also share more about that towards the end of the episode, but Jennifer, one question that I always love asking here on the brand strategy podcast centers around what kind of, kind of, you know, final encouragement you would want to leave people with today, for those who have been tuning in the designers who are just getting started with web design, and they’re really excited about the possibility that that has for them, what kind of words of encouragement would you want to share with them today?
Jennifer:
So, number one, I would tell you, I feel like another guest of yours mentioned something along the lines of this recently. So I was like, I know we’re not alone, actually, a couple of these. So this should be maybe reoccurring encouragement that hopefully your listeners have heard before. It’s just not as saturated as you feel like it is. And I would encourage you to take yourself out of, you know, this whole world, right? Like even though brand and web design and even graphic design and marketing, like all these kind of have their own boxes, but they are like really, really intertwined together. And they are still kind of almost a, a nation themselves. And so we just, we think like, well, because I’m a web designer, I’m looking at what this branding designer does. That’s like enough out of the box, but it’s really not.
Jennifer:
And even, um, I think you’ve mentioned before Bonnie, that you’ve done this for like, you know, non 10 years. And like you thought it was saturated back then. And it’s, I just would say it’s still not. And to, to be able to do that, my, my little mind trick that I teach myself for that is to be able to think of other services or other service providers that you work with. And so, in my case, right now, I mentioned we were building a house and anytime I come up against like a roadblock in my head of like, oh, like charge this much more, or, you know, add this thing on, like, are they going to be mad that they have to pay this much for this thing? And I think, you know what, I’m paying my home builder, like a lot of money. And every time we go over there, you know, I’ll see the framers and they’re hanging off the side of the roof or something.
Jennifer:
And I’m thinking, I am just so happy. Here’s my money. I’m just so happy to be paying you to do this job. And, and people are like that with us. And we, we don’t think that, and we don’t feel that way. And we worry that like, oh, there’s other people doing what we do or whatever. Just again, kind of like we talked about the website stuff, like paying attention to your own experiences, you know, how you pick, you know, there’s always the analogy of like bread at the store or whatever. Like there’s tons, they’re always mean tons of options, no matter what you do. And so just encouraging yourself that like find a way to think about it in another industry and really see that like, it’s okay. The things, there are a lot of other people that do what you do, but you’re also like purposely, sometimes putting yourself around a lot more of those people.
Jennifer:
So of course it’s going to seem, um, more saturated. And another thing that I think kind of ties in with that is just to not overly compare your journey with somebody else’s. So, and I definitely give really all three of these pieces advice because I need help with them. Um, and have in the past that, like, I have four kids right there, three of my kids are adopted and so we have some special needs and some other stuff. And then there’s pretty big age gap. Like my oldest son’s about to turn 15 and my youngest son is just turned four. And so, you know, plenty of you, I’m sure maybe still have a full-time job or maybe you’re a student, or maybe you have all this free time or, you know, all these different schedules. And so I know I have to watch that even with like coaches and other things, I’m never going to be in the exact same boat as somebody else.
Jennifer:
And so when I see, even if it’s just like the amount of content they’re producing or whatever, I don’t know if they have 10 team members or just themselves. I don’t know if they stay up all night or, you know, they don’t know that I get up early and there’s so many things you can compare yourself on. And I think, we think like, well, I’ve been in business for four years and this person has been in business for four years. So we should be around the same level. Why am I not at that level, but are just so many other factors. So definitely don’t over compare yourself to other people. And my last thing would be to just play with, from a web design, specifically play with different platforms and, and take that knowledge like that knowledge just grows and it moves with you from place to place.
Jennifer:
It’d be the same thing. If you went, I kind of has switched a little bit over to affinity. I don’t use all that stuff enough, but I was using Photoshop and I’m like, you know what? These are like, really some of them are really similar. Um, and so if you’ve been, I think some designers get in, I mean, I love what blo and I just was talking about it clearly. And I am really trying to like, just take those projects and move forward with those. But if I, when I logged back into Squarespace, I’m 10 times better at Squarespace now because of all the stuff I know from Winslow. And when I first moved from Squarespace and started adding on things in WordPress, I was able to use WordPress really well because of the things I’ve known from other platforms. And then again, that experience we talked about just your own browsing and usage, like all the time, all of that adds together.
Jennifer:
And you’re never like starting over. And I think sometimes when we think like, oh, well, if I’m, if I’ve been doing branding and now I’m going to ad web and like, oh, it just feels like I’m starting over with like my packages, my all this up, and you’re adding things to it. But nobody’s like erasing that piece of your brain where you’re truly like starting over. You’re always going to bring, you know, if you worked in an office setting or you worked in retail, like you’re bringing all those experiences and tying those into what you do moving forward. So I just have been quick to kind of have that like attitude of like, now that I’m adding this or switching this, or like, it just feels like I’m starting all over and I’ve been very quickly corrected by coaches and brands of like, you’re not starting over. Like, you’re just taking everything you already have and adding to it. So those would be my three, my three things,
Bonnie:
Woof, such incredible advice and amazing encouragement. Thank you so much for leaving us with just incredible things to be thinking about and processing and absorbing today. Now, Jennifer, I know that for those who’ve been tuning and they’re going to want to connect with you and learn more about the incredible work that you’re doing and follow along in your journey. So where can people connect with you and find you online?
Jennifer:
Yeah, I would love that. I’ve I’ve know I’ve mentioned already. I’m like, I love adults. I need more adults in my lifestyle if you’re an adult with let’s get it. So my website is site maker, studio.com, and then I’m on Instagram. That’s the same handle is stopmakerstudio. And there is, I think you mentioned it about, I have a freebies page on my website. So if you go to stopmakerstudio.com/freebies, there’s a couple on there that go through like my process and then one specific to Webflow. And those are really helpful again or not. But especially the process that we talked about, piecemealing that together, that kind of hopefully save you a few steps that you’re doing a little less of the piecemealing. So I would love that. Send me a message anywhere. And I’ll, I always tell people, I’m like we try to, I try to save school time and dividing time. That’s tough as business owners, we all know, but I am happy to chat or voice message you or anything. So I would love it. Please come see.
Bonnie:
Awesome. And friends, if your teammate in today, as always, I’m going to have all of Jennifer’s links in the show notes for today’s episode. So if you go over to brand strategy, podcast.com and click on the link for the latest episode, you’re going to find her Weblo beginner’s guide her web design process guide all of her social links in her website as well. So please, please, please connect with her. Definitely take advantage of these amazing free resources that she’s sharing with us and Jennifer, thank you so much for coming on the show today, talking through this topic with me and sharing so much of your expertise in this area. I have loved hearing about your thoughts and kind of learning from you in this way.
Jennifer:
Thank you so much funny. Um, it was, I knew it’d be a good conversation when you said y’all within like the first few minutes of us talking. I was like, yes, this is my, this is going to be a friend. So I’ve really enjoyed it. I, I can’t wait to keep up and hear more people come on the show. And um, thank you for having me.
Bonnie:
Thank you so much. You’re so you’re so welcome. Um, friends as always thank you for tuning in. If you were listening today and you took away some insight or a negative wisdom, and you want to share that with your industry bestie or someone, you know, who’s getting started, please be sure to send this link. We really want to make sure that more people have access to just the encouragement and the action-based resources that they need in order to pursue their dreams. So especially if you know, a designer who is interested in growing their expertise around web design, or if they’re wanting to become a web designer. I think that Jen, Jennifer is honestly such a wealth of knowledge as, as we’ve seen today. Um, so I would highly recommend, you know, connecting with her tuning in, and of course to this episode and connecting with her, if you feel that tug. So as always, I appreciate you listening to the brand strategy podcast, and I’m going to be cheering you on from Waco. Thank you so much for joining me today. Friends, before you go, I would be so grateful to receive your feedback on the brand strategy podcast. If you enjoyed this episode or the podcast in general has helped you grow your brand and really appreciate if you left us
Bonnie:
A review in iTunes, your positive reviews enable the brand strategy five hats to continue to grow and reach like-minded creatives. Just like you. Plus I’ll be randomly selecting a handful of lucky reviewers each month, Jersey a little. Thank you. Surprise for me in the mail. Thank you for all your support and encouragement as together, we pursue building brands with purpose and intention, and until next time I’m cheering you on from Waco.
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