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In today’s episode of the podcast, launch copywriter Dani Paige joins me to demystify conversion copywriting for service-based business owners and course creators. Whether you’re launching a new service or you’re refining an existing offer, the copy you use on your sales pages is directly tied to how that offer will perform. But what should we consider when we are staring at that blinking cursor on the screen? In this conversation, Dani shares not only how to get started with copy that converts but also how to partner with a professional copywriter for great results.
MEET DANI
Dani helps course creators write un-boring launch copy so they can convert more members, and create more impact, with their online programs. She also helps emerging copywriters learn the high-paying skill of launch copy, so they can build thriving online businesses.
CONNECT WITH DANI
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Please note this transcript has been auto generated and may contain typos.
Bonnie (00:07):
Hi, friend, and welcome to the Brand Strategy Podcast, a show created to equip you with the inspiration, encouragement, and clarity you need to build a brand of your dreams. I’m your host, Bonnie Bakhtiari, brand designer, strategist, and founder of The Illume Retreat from sustainable strategy to heartfelt encouragement. Each episode is designed to equip you with the tools you need to chase after your dreams because you deserve a brand that empowers you to do what you love, connects with your dream clients, and offers a deep sense of fulfillment along the way. So grab a cup of coffee and join me on this journey, won’t you
Bonnie (00:45):
Friends, Welcome back to the Brand Strategy podcast, where today we are talking about demystifying conversion copywriting with Danny Page. I’m so excited to have Danny back on the podcast where we’re gonna talk about all things conversion copy. We’re gonna be exploring how as a course creator or a service provider or a freelancer, you can actually utilize copywriting to connect with the kinds of clients and customers who need your work the most in a way that really works for you. So with that being said, Danny is a absolute expert in this area. She is a launch copywriter and strategist who helps course creators write unborn launch copy so they can convert more members and create more impact with our online programs. She also helps emerging copywriters learn the high paying skill of launch copy so that they can build thriving online businesses. Danny, welcome back to the Brand Strategy Podcast. I’m so excited to get to chat with you today.
Dani (01:47):
Hey, Bonnie. Thank you for having me. I’m so pumped to be back.
Bonnie (01:51):
Well, I am pumped to have you now, um, for those who are just meeting you for the first time, I would love it if you could share a little bit more about who you are and what you do
Dani (02:04):
For sure. So, yeah, I’m a launch copywriter, copy mentor, and I help course creators and digital entrepreneurs lean into their unique voice to write compelling sales copy that, you know, feels like them and inspires action and change. And after years of working with creatives and marketers and now fellow copywriters too, it’s clear just the, like, the simplicity of how we share our words can really, truly attract these loyal customers. And it just, it brings me so much joy to be able to help people, um, find their voice and show up online in a really lively and non-salesy way.
Bonnie (02:40):
I love that you specialize in that kind of non-salesy approach to sales based copy because Right. You know, and, and maybe this is just me having been in the industry for, you know, a certain number of years, but I feel like, you know, there kind of came to this point when all of a sudden all of our sales pages, all of our service pages, all of our course launches kind of started to sound the same. Right. ,
Dani (03:04):
I completely agree. And like, well, especially now with everything going on and like all these automations and ai, like, I think it’s even more important to show that you’re a human and really connect with people, um, on a more personal level.
Bonnie (03:19):
That makes so much sense. So before we dive into how we can actually start doing that, let’s, let’s kind of create a foundation here. What exactly is so special about conversion copywriting and why is it necessary for online business owners?
Dani (03:38):
Yeah, so, well, conversion copy is all about writing in a strategic and persuasive way that like compels people to take action. So there’s a difference between writing, let’s say a newsletter to just share information versus writing a sales page to get someone to join your program. Like they are written differently. And it’s important because, I mean, to be in business, like we do need to sell our, our programs, our courses or services, what whatever we have. Um, but well-written conversion copy as I’m saying, like, it, it shouldn’t feel like selling, right? It should just feel like opening conversations and genuinely wanting to help people and like only when that fit is right, guiding them to take the next step in their decision process. And we, we spend so much time and money and the energy in building our audience that when we have the right person in front of us, we’re doing a disservice to both us and them, like if we’re not communicating exactly what they need to make that right decision for themself. And all of that happens through well-written conversion copy, you know, so we can convert those perfect fits into our programs.
Bonnie (04:49):
I love how you make this point of if you have someone who’s interested in working with you and they come to your website or your landing page or whatever, and they don’t understand what it is that you do and how it impacts them and how it’s gonna help them reach a certain level of transformation or, uh, you know, achieve a certain outcome, we’re actually doing ourselves a disservice and them disservice. Um, I think that, you know, in the online business space, especially sales sometimes gets kind of a negative rap and mm-hmm. , it doesn’t have to be this like disingenuous or kind of like sleazy sort of thing. It’s actually more about service and it’s about showing up and serving your clients or customers through your skills and your talents and, and what it is that you do. And so from my perspective, it sounds like conversion copywriting is that key to helping us have more of those relational, genuine conversations with people and make it easy for people to select what services, what courses, what programs are actually gonna work for them, versus those that might not be the best fit. Right?
Dani (06:01):
Yeah, that’s exactly it. And like, it breaks my heart sometimes when I go in to help these course graders when I maybe go in to write their sales page and I see what they had to begin with, and it’s like, it’s just not representing how fantastic this course actually is, and it’s not doing them the justice of like the heart that they’ve put into their program. So that’s really, you know, bringing that conversion copy and writing it in a way that truly represents like how you can help, um, it makes the world of difference for our online businesses.
Bonnie (06:32):
Hmm. That makes sense. Well, and you, I I’m, I’m assuming that you have this real unique perspective where, because you go in and you work with course creators to rewrite their copy, um, that you see kind of the before and after of you see mm-hmm. what the d i y route might look like. And then you see, of course, the kind of results that your clients experience after they work with you. So from your perspective, when should an online business owner actually hire a professional copywriter versus when does it make sense to actually go the d i y route?
Dani (07:08):
For sure. And it’s a great question because I, I don’t believe that you write, always need to hire a copywriter right out of the gate. My my kind of benchmark is once you have a viable offer, then it’s a great time to think about higher rate a copywriter. Uh, because if you’re still testing things out and you’re still kind of in the thick of, you know, sorting out your program, your services, I, I truly don’t think it’s worth the investment quite yet. Uh, but when you have a course or your program that is validated and you, you know, you’ve had people come through with transformations maybe on a smaller scale, then hiring a copywriter will really amplify and help you like massively speed up your success. So that’s kinda my, my thought process on when to hire
Bonnie (07:52):
Mm-hmm. . Okay. So not necessarily something that, like a brand new business owner who doesn’t really have a product yet, doesn’t really know what kind of service they wanna offer, not necessarily something that they need to be investing in straight out the gate ,
Dani (08:07):
Right? Because they might still be sorting out their voice too, right. At that point, and how, like we need to be able to, the copywriter needs to be able to capture your voice, and if it’s not quite, um, there yet, then it, it, it just makes the whole process a bit tougher. Mm,
Bonnie (08:23):
Interesting. So, um, what I find really fascinating about that is it can present this unique challenge from the client side of things to communicate your voice to a copywriter if you don’t know that voice. And so giving yourself, it doesn’t need to be this like, you know, multiple years long process. It could just be giving yourself some time to dig into your brand, your voice, your values, how that sounds, how that feels, right. That can be this incredibly important foundational piece that will, from my perspective, transform the kind of results that you can see when you work with a professional copywriter.
Dani (09:08):
Yeah. And I think it’s, it’s not like you, they need to be able to sit down and be like, this is my voice and this is how I do da, da, da. It’s more like really having even like your coaching style, um, and having these things locked down because a copywriter will be able to come in and understand your voice. They’ll be able to look at emails you’ve written or even just chatting with you. They’ll be able to pull that voice out. Uh, so it’s not like you need to have like a formal written out what your voice is. It’s just really, um, knowing who you are as a, um, as a leader and as a, like, how you run your programs, how you like to interact with people, these sort of things. Um, a a great copywriter will be able to pull that out. You
Bonnie (09:45):
Mm-hmm. I love how you say, pull that out of you. Um, that actually kinda leads me to something that I really wanted to talk about today is, uh, you know, just kind of the, where we are as, uh, an industry, the rise of automation, the rise of AI has made a big presence in this online space. And so, you know, I wanted to talk about what are the advantages of working with a professional copywriter versus using AI using a tool that, in some cases is free or, you know, substantially lower cost than going with that professional copywriter?
Dani (10:25):
Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s such a good question, and I’ll be the first to say too, like, AI is opening so many doors and it’s an amazing tool to leverage, you know, um, helping us write headlines or analyzing research or helping generate ideas and like it’s capabilities keep growing too. But as mentioned, like conversion copy needs to be written differently, and it has that level of building the no, like trust factor through personality driven copy and through stories and like with empathy and AI is not human. It just can’t produce that. Um, so we still need humans who can take all of its great ideas and put it together into something that is conversion, optimized and unique too, which is a, a really big disclaimer as well, like making unique copy and all of the personality traits and like the right flow, putting it all together. And, and that’s best done by human, like someone who can actually go through your program and as you mentioned, like pull out the right info, um, from you that, that your audience needs to hear and just chat with you to uncover these stories. Uh, so that’s really why I’m enjoying AI for what it is. It’s a fantastic tool, but it’s not a replacement for true conversion and connection driven copy, which is what personal brands really need to be able to have, uh, to sell online.
Bonnie (11:45):
Mm, that makes so much sense. And I love how you are utilizing AI as a tool, which from my perspective, that’s what it’s designed to be. It’s designed to be this, this resource, this asset that we can utilize. It doesn’t need to be your professional copywriter because from my perspective, it was never designed to be that. And, and it can’t replace the warmth and the strategy and the expertise that a human can bring to that project. And just like you were saying, you know, someone who’s gonna sit down and look at your program and look at the way that you coach people or the way that you talk with people and pull out all that information, that is something that I just have a hard time imagining, um, you know, an algorithm or or code being able to do for us .
Dani (12:42):
Right, exactly. I totally agree.
Bonnie (12:45):
So, um, you know, we’re talking about a little bit what it looks like to work with a professional copywriter, you know, when to assess, is this the right time for me to hire someone? Um, what, you know, are the advantages of working with a pro in this area? Out of curiosity, what are some results? Like, what are some kind of, uh, expectations that people should have when they choose to work with a professional copywriter to craft sales pages and conversion-based copy?
Dani (13:17):
Yeah, I mean, there’s lots that we can expect for sure. I mean, I also will say I can’t sit here and be like, I can guarantee results, but what I will say, like when clients have a proven program and an engaged audience, like they can expect a copywriter to really supercharge that for them. Um, I recently had a client whose program was selling pretty well, uh, but I came in and rewrote her sales page and we ended up having a quarter of a million dollar launch together. And like, of course, it’s not something I can say, you can expect this, but like, if you’re confident with your offer and you’ve done your due diligence on the copywriter, this really is the recipe to catapult your conversions. Um, and then also the other things that you can expect too is like simply just removing the stress of writing sales, uh, sales page or launch emails yourself, right? Um, getting these super important things off your plate and having like reusable content for all future launches too. Um, all with the validation that it’s been done by an expert, um, and you’re not second guessing yourself. So all of these are, are also wonderful things that we can expect, uh, when hiring a professional.
Bonnie (14:28):
Mm. That makes all of this sense. What I find fascinating is how vast and varied the world of copywriting actually is. You know, today we’re talking specifically about conversion copy, but knowing that, like even you were just mentioning this, uh, a couple minutes ago towards the beginning of our conversation, you were saying writing your sales page is different from say, writing an email to your list and updating them about, you know, what’s been going on mm-hmm. . And what’s fascinating is that as online business owners, we often require ourselves, and even just the nature of running your own business, we have to wear a lot of different hats and, you know, for a certain amount of time we have to, you know, wear that hat of copywriter. And that’s not, I, I feel like there comes a point where the d i y copy copy kind of loses its power and its effectiveness in the sense of when you’re just getting started, when you’re figuring out who you are and what you do and who you serve, and what kind of transformation your work provides your ideal client, you know, there’s a lot of sense in writing your own copy or investing in some templates or some resources to help you through that process.
Bonnie (15:56):
But what’s fascinating is I keep having conversations with, um, you know, former students or even industry friends who say, you know, I very clearly reached this point in my business where I realized that not having professionally written copy was actually costing me, it was costing me sales. Mm-hmm. it was costing me clients. And so I’m hearing all these stories from, you know, even friends who are saying, when I worked with a professional copywriter, my sales skyrocketed, my confidence grew, you know, talking about who I am and what I do stopped being this like awkward kind of jumble of words and, and now I know exactly what to say to people. And I’m curious from your perspective, um, that kind of growth that people see, um, is that something that you see them being able to implement in the long run of having these tools, being able to continually weave the work that you’ve done with them through other copy, through, um, future launches and things like that?
Dani (17:00):
Ooh, I like that question and yeah, it’s so true. Like, our launches are never one and done. Mm-hmm. , once we do the heavy work of writing the copy, like especially a sales page, we can use that for all fu future launches and we can actually pull from it for all other assets too. Um, like I suggest pulling from, you know, pull from the top part of your sales page where we’re talking about the problem and use that as like pre-launch emails when we’re, when we’re leading into the problem, um, pull from the middle of the sales page when you’re talking about the FAQs or you’re guarantee you can use that as emails. Um, all of the ideas throughout the page you can use as social posts. Um, so it’s definitely reusable. Um, I had a client who I, I wrote her copy and she was just, could not believe the, the value that she was able to use from that one piece of copy, um, for all other aspects. She even used it to spark her webinar script as well. Um, so yeah, it, it definitely, um, has a ripple effect to, to that kind of, uh, goes out throughout every other aspect of, of your business when you can invest the right way into, you know, this professional copy. Um, and like I said, you have that reassurance that it’s done right, and you’re, you’re just so much more confident when you’re putting stuff out online, when, when you know it’s, um, been crafted the right way.
Bonnie (18:14):
Mm. That makes sense because there’s that, there’s a huge amount of sophistication that goes into writing sales pages. You know, I think that , um, it’s, it’s not just as simple as saying, you know, Hey, I’ve got this great thing, this great course, this, you know, membership, this program, here’s how to buy it. Here’s the price, you know, here’s the buy button. There’s so much more that goes into, um, presenting all the information that your potential client or student needs to know in order to make an informed decision. Right. So as a pro, I imagine that you and your team are putting a lot of thought into the nuance that is incorporated into every sales page. It’s not necessarily this like kind of one and done sort of, you know, like formula, right?
Dani (19:00):
Oh, it, it’s so true. It’s not, it’s not something that we, I mean, we can’t copy over sales pages, and that’s why, um, like it hurts to see when people are like, oh, I’m just gonna go look at so-and-so’s sales page and kind of replicate that for myself. But there’s so much that we don’t know that’s going on for their specific customer, and that’s why we need to jump on, like, research calls for one, and really dig into who our actual person is and what they’re going through, and what are these thoughts that are going through their head and like reasons that might be holding them back, uh, reasons that maybe don’t even pertain to your offer that are holding them back. Um, there’s all these things that we can uncover, um, in that like research phase that we can bring forward onto the sales page that will help really speak to your specific audience.
Bonnie (19:47):
Obviously there’s so much research and, and support that your clients are receiving when they work with you, but from your perspective as an expert in this industry, what are some things that people can do to get started with conversion copywriting that, you know, doesn’t involve looking at what someone else is doing and just copying that, um, if they aren’t quite at that point yet, where they’re able to hire pro to do it for them?
Dani (20:18):
Yeah, so, well, if they’re not able to hire a pro, I mean, one thing that I always suggest is just start following another copywriter online. Follow someone that you trust and take note of how they’re communicating. Like, I, I actually have a lot of people who respond to my emails saying how much they learn from my emails, even when they’re just a straight storytelling email. Like, I’m not actually like explicitly teaching something on in that email. Um, but you’re able to pick up like, how I craft these stories and whatnot. So I would say that’s a great first start. Just, um, watch how someone you trust is writing emails and sales pages and soak up as much as you can. I, I believe we’re always students in our own business. Um, so that’s kind of one thing. And then you mentioned too, also, uh, templates, which I’m, I’m actually a huge fan of templates. Um, I do think that they can fill in the gaps for you. I, I think with a note of caution also as well, because I think there’s probably, I mean, there’s million of 10 millions of templates out there now, especially with ai. Uh, so just doing due diligence on where we’re getting those templates from. Are they templates that are actually proven to convert? Like is there a strategy behind them? Um, and with that then you can, you know, feel confident, confident in jumping into some of these templates online.
Bonnie (21:36):
Hmm. Um, kind of to build on that point of utilizing templates, you know, quality templates, um, where are some places that you like to see people utilizing those templates on their websites, for example? Um, do you think that it makes sense to look at templates for sales pages about pages, you know, kind of what, what sort of implementation do you recommend there?
Dani (22:06):
Yeah, I mean, I, I look at templates kinda like I do with AI and use them for as a tool to kind of spark us. So they’re never usually a word for word thing, but I do think that there’s fantastic templates out there, um, for emails. I mean, I actually have a, a whole new suite of templates coming down the pipe soon for pre-launch emails and launch emails, um, helping with sales pages, post-launch emails. Um, there’s always so much we can do and so much inspiration and knowledge we can get from some of these templates, but then go and use ’em for ourself and implement them with our own specific audience. Um, so yeah, I think there’s fantastic, um, avenues and templates out there for our emails and our sales pages is just kinda finding the right one and being able to implement them for ourself and for our own, um, industry.
Bonnie (22:56):
Mm-hmm. , mm-hmm. . So using some, using some ja discernment there, doing some, a little bit of homework. Um, but I love that because there’s so many resources available to us in the online business space now that we do have access to things like templates that can be, um, something that we utilize as we are making the big picture, long-term goal, hiring a pro in the future. So that is really great advice. And speaking of advice, um, as a final piece of encouragement or advice around, you know, how to demystify conversion copywriting, is there anything that you want those tuning in today to remember about using sales copywriting to grow their business?
Dani (23:44):
Well, sales copy is, it’s such an interesting topic because it’s literally in every element of our online brand, right? When, when we write a landing page to get someone to sign up for our freebie, that’s sales copy. And when we write an email to get them to, let’s say, watch our new YouTube video, you know, that’s sales copy. So my advice here is that there, there’s always a fun balance of kind of like respecting how much copy is needed, but at the same time, knowing that done is better than perfect. And I always tell my members and like my community that we can’t make changes to a blank page. So just get that first version out there and you can always make it better, um, because then you have data to improve it because you know, then you have, uh, something to build on or maybe even then you can hire it out, right? Uh, but just to like remove some of this copy overwhelm here is just to remind everyone listening that, um, what you hit publish on will always be enough. And once you have something out there, you’ll always have something to improve and build on. So that’s kind of my, my last little piece of advice, I guess as we chat about this. Cause I know that there’s just so, so much copy out there and sometimes it can be overwhelming.
Bonnie (25:00):
Absolutely. And just to echo that, you know, I’m in year 11 now of my business and the copy that I have today, the copy that I have on my website, or, you know, some of the themes that I pull from when I am creating like a social media post, they are nothing like what I had when I first started my business. And in a lot of ways that’s a really good thing. But it’s, it’s, you know, to me it just illustrates how much change is normal and how much your copy, your brand will evolve. And a lot of cases it will, as it evolves, it will refine to that point where, you know, you have a cohesive voice, you have clear, you know, themes of what you do and how you talk about your work. And, you know, all of this just comes with time. And so it doesn’t need to be something that you nail right on the first try. You know, that’s, that’s incredibly lucky if that happens. But for myself and for a lot of us, we go through that trial and error and it’s normal. It’s okay. And Danny, I love that you, you know, brought us back to that truth of done is better than perfect. Getting something up, getting it out there, seeing how people interact with it, getting that data that’s gonna really propel you forward. So I love that you shared that.
Dani (26:26):
Oh, that’s great.
Bonnie (26:28):
Now I know that folks who are tuning in today are gonna want to know how they can connect with you, learn more about what you’re doing and follow along. So where can people find you online?
Dani (26:40):
Thank you. I would love to connect with anyone who is hanging out with us here. I hang out most on Instagram, Danny page.online. Uh, my website is also danny page.com. Um, and if anyone’s interested too, I know we chatted about a little, a little bit about hiring, how to do it, where to do it. Um, if you’re interested in a learning a little bit more about that, I do have a resource all about, um, like just a little bit deeper about what to look for, um, when hiring out a sales copywriter. And you can check that out@offersdannypage.com slash outsource.
Bonnie (27:12):
Amazing. Thanks for sharing that with us. And of course, to those who are tuning in today, we will have that link to this incredible resource that Danny has created and all of her other links in the show notes for today’s episode. So if you go to brand strategy podcast.com, click on the latest episode link, then you will find everything you need right there as long, um, actually in addition to , um, a transcript of today’s conversation. Danny, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for breaking down this topic. I know that, um, at least from my perspective, sometimes copywriting and specifically conversion copy can feel like, woo, there’s a lot that goes into it, and yep. So being able to hear from you and have this chat with you has really offered a lot of clarity. And so I’m hopeful that those tuning in feel the same. But thank you again.
Dani (28:08):
Thank you so much for having me. And thank you everyone for listening.
Bonnie (28:12):
Friends, I so appreciate you tuning into today’s episode. And as always, if you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me. Feel free to reach out to Danny as well. You can reach her over on Instagram. Um, we’re hoping that today’s conversation is pointing you in the right direction and giving you some next steps you can follow to, you know, really breathe more intention into your conversion copy so that you can do more of the incredible work that you do and help more people through your work. Um, with that being said, thanks for tuning in and as always, I’m cheering y’all on from Waco.
Bonnie (28:52):
Thank you so much for joining me today. Friend, before you go, I would be so grateful to receive your feedback on the brand strategy podcast. If you enjoyed this episode or the podcast in general has helped you grow your brand, I’d really appreciate it if you left us a review in iTunes. Your positive reviews enable the brand strategy podcast to continue to grow and reach like-minded creatives just like you. Thank you for all your support and encouragement as together we pursue building brands with purpose and intention. Until next time, I’m cheering you on from Waco.
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